Best value in a production knife brand

mjpgolf1 said:
As mentioned above its hard to lump an entire brand into a "value" category. I am looking more for specific knives. For example, I've seen 2 mentions of ZT being a good "value" which I question because ZT and Benchmade are both in my mind getting carried away with price vs the actual value of the product they are providing. I mean is a production line made mostly by machine folding knife with a basic steel like S30/35v really worth $200+? I know these knife makers are throwing carbon fiber and titanium scales on them but it's not like we're talking about a huge chunk of either material, also they aren't hand making these and buying in huge bulk should allow for much cheaper prices paid for materials. There is no way that these blades should be approaching now the price of quality ccw firearms in some cases.

I see CRK also mentioned above and there is will actually agree that these knives are a nice value for what you get. Lower production numbers and careful craftsmanship make a basic CRK a decent value at their entry level prices. I figure this by also looking at resale and used market values which CRK seems to hold up well. Obviously this is just an opinion.

This thread isn't about what brand of knife you buy, being a fanboy of said brand, or self justification of ones purchases. This is about actual materials used in a certain knife that make it a good value in comparison to other "production folders" on the market and about the overall direction that the prices of these knives are heading.
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I guess I don't follow you. You just contradicted yourself. You say a $200 ZT that is made with titanium and S35 is to much for the materials used. But then you said CRK is a nice value for what you get. They use titanium and S35... Which will cost you double over the ZT. Yes the ZT is not precision made like the CRK but they are the same materials (and ZT makes really nice stuff). And you later say $200-300 is out of hand for a production folder. Which is what CRK is a "production folder" (and they cost over $400). Just seems like you bash ZT a lot. Do you have something against ZT?
 
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I'm a Spydie nut. Probably 99% of my knives were Spyderco, although I buy and sell them quickly and don't carry one at the moment. I do respect (and buy) certain other brands, but Spyderco is my main choice.
 
It's hard not to include Kizer (more specifically their Vanguard series) in a discussion of high value.
 
mjpgolf1 said:
So I've been pondering this question lately and also have been quite disgusted with the pricing of mid tech production level folding knives and I'm wondering what you all think is the best bang for your buck in the mid tech folding knife bracket. I'm not talking about a Spyderco Tenacious or an Onterio Rat, I'm talking about your $100+ production blades. I've noticed that every year folding knives made by companies like Benchmade and Zero Tolerance, just to name a couple, have been getting up there in price. I expect for items to increase in price with natural inflation, but it seems to me that things are getting a bit out of hand. I mean is a folding knife made on a production line really worth $200-$400 and sometimes even more? Even with higher end steels and handle materials being used I still don't see the value in most of these new knives.

If I was to name a couple of good value for the money I would probably list the Spyderco Gayle Bradley 2 at $130 with its M4 steel and carbon fiber "laminate" scales, the Spyderco Paramilitary 2 at $130.

I own and have owned all kinds of brands and I'm not at all pimping Spyderco here. I'm just listing a couple that come to mind at this time and they just happen to be made by Spyderco.

There are lots of production knives that are made with the same materials as the "good value" knives I listed that are up around $200 and some even more. So I guess I'm asking if I'm the only one that thinks things are getting crazy or are some of you in the same boat in my thinking?

Even knives like the regular Benchmade Griptilian seems like it's getting up to the point of it being overpriced for entry level steel and plastic handles. While I own many knives that I paid what I feel is way too much for a piece of steel on a handle I just find myself asking why lately. I do love collecting and carrying my EDC items everyday and more than likely I will continue to pay whatever I need to when I find something I like, but I do find myself looking more at like new or lightly used examples of the knives I'm wanting to save 30-50% sometimes.

I would like to hear what you guys consider some of the best values, best bang for your buck, in higher end production knife brands and why you feel they are worth what the manufacturer, or dealer, is selling them for.

Also how do you feel about production folding knife prices now? Are they in line with the product that is being put out, or should these companies take a step back and adjust before they begin to price people right out of their product line?
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And the price for the PM2 went up to $140 (usamadeblade.com). G10 and S30. Again, $140. But $40-60 more for titanium or "real" carbon fiber (not laminated) is to much??? I don't get threads like this. It does nothing but pit people against each other and it's all opinion based. There is no right answer. Decide what you feel is worth it to you and buy what you like and "what you feel is worth it". It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
 
Ruggdogg87 said:
I guess I don't follow you. You just contradicted yourself. You say a $200 ZT that is made with titanium and S35 is to much for the materials used. But then you said CRK is a nice value for what you get. They use titanium and S35... Which will cost you double over the ZT. Yes the ZT is not precision made like the CRK but they are the same materials (and ZT makes really nice stuff). And you later say $200-300 is out of hand for a production folder. Which is technically what CRK is. Just seems like you bash ZT a lot. Do you have something against ZT?
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I said several times this wasn't about any individual brand. However what I notice here is that ZT seems to have a few folks that come out anytime someone has something to say they don't like. I pointed out Benchmade as well and I personally own 9 benchmades. 3 of which I actually purchased from you personally on the exchange, which you were a pleasure to deal with I may add. As for CRK they are a completely different breed. I consider them to be more of a custom brand than a production knife. Much lower production numbers also. As far as ZT, yeah, I think they are extremely overpriced, but I also think Benchmades are getting there along with other brands.

I didn't start this thread to argue about ZT. I started it to see if people had any knives that they could contribute that were legitamit value for the money and to vent a bit about how "all" of these knife companies are getting crazy with their prices. I don't necessarily have anything against ZT, I just find that they, as well as others, are pricing their knives a bit high. It just seems that there are a few people that can't stand when someone says that ZT isn't the best knife ever built. All good though on my end my friend.
 
If we are talking only brands here, I would vote for Buck, Cold Steel, KaBar, Kershaw and Ontario. If we are talking specific models then things change. To come up with best value, I have to look at price, customer service, workmanship, materials, and design ergonomics.

There is always someone that can made a product cheaper by cutting cost somewhere in production. Price and value don't always go hand in hand but, if I am only going to look at what I get for the least amount of money spent, then I would have to go with the KaBar Dozier as best value in a production knife.

However, if I factor in the items above, I find that I am looking at different models and different makers. Then Spyderco comes to the surface. Their Manix 2 and the PM2 are very hard to beat for their ergonomics. True, it can be argued that their are many knives at a lower price point that will be just as good but I can't overlook the ergonomics of the designs. The same holds true (for me) with the Benchmade Ritter Griptilian. Yes, it is a nice bundle of cash for something with plastic scales but when you look at the overall design, CS, and ergos, it is a great value.

My 2 cents.
 
mjpgolf1 said:
I said several times this wasn't about any individual brand. However what I notice here is that ZT seems to have a few folks that come out anytime someone has something to say they don't like. I pointed out Benchmade as well and I personally own 9 benchmades. 3 of which I actually purchased from you personally on the exchange, which you were a pleasure to deal with I may add. As for CRK they are a completely different breed. I consider them to be more of a custom brand than a production knife. Much lower production numbers also. As far as ZT, yeah, I think they are extremely overpriced, but I also think Benchmades are getting there along with other brands.

I didn't start this thread to argue about ZT. I started it to see if people had any knives that they could contribute that were legitamit value for the money and to vent a bit about how "all" of these knife companies are getting crazy with their prices. I don't necessarily have anything against ZT, I just find that they, as well as others, are pricing their knives a bit high. It just seems that there are a few people that can't stand when someone says that ZT isn't the best knife ever built. All good though on my end my friend.
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Well you were a pleasure as well! Benchmade I can agree is a little high for some of their offerings. But I think the same for Spyderco. I just think ZT is caught in the higher up knives and don't have really any lower prices offerings to combat the lower cost benchmades or spydercos. I'm not trying to arguing either and I can admit I am in Oregon with both ZT and Benchmade less than 20 minutes from my house so I can be a little fan boyish at times and I'm sorry if I come off that way.
 
sabre cat said:
If we are talking only brands here, I would vote for Buck, Cold Steel, KaBar, Kershaw and Ontario. If we are talking specific models then things change. To come up with best value, I have to look at price, customer service, workmanship, materials, and design ergonomics.

There is always someone that can made a product cheaper by cutting cost somewhere in production. Price and value don't always go hand in hand but, if I am only going to look at what I get for the least amount of money spent, then I would have to go with the KaBar Dozier as best value in a production knife.

However, if I factor in the items above, I find that I am looking at different models and different makers. Then Spyderco comes to the surface. Their Manix 2 and the PM2 are very hard to beat for their ergonomics. True, it can be argued that their are many knives at a lower price point that will be just as good but I can't overlook the ergonomics of the designs. The same holds true (for me) with the Benchmade Ritter Griptilian. Yes, it is a nice bundle of cash for something with plastic scales but when you look at the overall design, CS, and ergos, it is a great value.

My 2 cents.
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Good choices. The Benchmade Ritter Griptilian gets bumped up a few notches because of its steel so for the couple extra bucks that it costs I would put the Ritter at a much better value than a regular Griptilian. I'm sorry but a regular Griptilian just feels like it should be in the $50-$60 price range. I wish that Benchmade could make their entry level Griptilians with G10 and stick with the 154cm and offer them at around the $100 range. That would be a much better knife in terms of feel. I have a full size G10 Griptilian and steel upgrade aside the G10 really transforms that knife into a very solid feeling folder. I don't even so much mind the 154cm on the regular Grip. It does quite well for anything I ever need it for, but the scales just have to go. The mini grips aren't quite as bad and are actually pretty solid feeling because of the full liners, but cmon Benchmade. If you're gonna charge $100 for a Griptilian then at least put some cheap G10'on there.
 
Ruggdogg87 said:
Well you were a pleasure as well! Benchmade I can agree is a little high for some of their offerings. But I think the same for Spyderco. I just think ZT is caught in the higher up knives and don't have really any lower prices offerings to combat the lower cost benchmades or spydercos. I'm not trying to arguing either and I can admit I am in Oregon with both ZT and Benchmade less than 20 minutes from my house so I can be a little fan boyish at times and I'm sorry if I come off that way.
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All good man. Lol. I've said many times that I thought ZT was missing out by not having knives to compete with the entry level benchmades and Spydercos. I'm sure that plays a part in why I don't see as much value in the ZT products. Regardless you are right in that value is different for everyone. I'm just venting a bit at how much these knives cost anymore. I got into this hobby because cars and guns were just getting to crazy on the wallet and now I'm spending $200+ sometimes on a damn knife that's mass produced by machines. Just crazy to me. But I'll still continue to buy them so who's really the fool here. Lol.
 
Personally I think the lionsteel knives are amazing value for the quality you receive. Especially the aluminium line of knives.
 
mjpgolf1 said:
.... I'm sorry but a regular Griptilian just feels like it should be in the $50-$60 price range. I wish that Benchmade could make their entry level Griptilians with G10 and stick with the 154cm and offer them at around the $100 range....
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I have to agree with you about the regular Griptilian. The going price for a basic Grip is $90-100 but, I would be willing to pay a little more for G10. Also, if they would make it with full liners it would be a much better knife even with the added weight. I have never torn mine apart but it is my understanding that the scales are not solid. You could probably fill them with resin and improve the feel.
 
mjpgolf1 said:
I've said many times that I thought ZT was missing out by not having knives to compete with the entry level benchmades and Spydercos.
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Kershaw.
Kershaw is the "value line" of KAI.
KAI comprises Kershaw, Zero Tolerance, and Shun (Shun is the kitchen knives division).

You keep talking about Zero Tolerance costing more...missing the entire point that Zero Tolerance is the more expensive line of pocket knives offered by KAI!

So yeah, Kershaw.
 
mjpgolf1 said:
How much more do you think it really costs to make any given knife? Go check out some of these knife makers sites that sell materials and you will see just how cheap knife materials are. Especially when buying in bulk. Knife brands are now just nothing more than hype and marketing. There isn't a production knife on the planet made on an assembly line that costs $150 more in materials than any other given folding knife. The process to assemble is basically the same no matter what materials are used when we're talking about quality construction. These companies all use the same basic equipment and source their materials from probably one or two of the same places. So it basically all comes down to how much can a company hype their product up to justify how much they sell it for.
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Well said.
 
You lost me when you put "value" and "$100 price range"'in the same question. I carry an Opinel and Micra 9 days out of 10 and this combination does everything I ask of it. Everything.

Knife performance isn't something that can be easily described in quantifiable metrics. There's just too much legitimate variability I user skills, daily uses, techniques, materials cut, and so on. You can't even point to edge retention as measured by cutting a standardized materials as too much focus on that leads to choosing a hyper-specialized material like Boyes Dendric Cobalt which will cut rope all week long but gives up performance in other aspects.

This is to say, that if you've picked the $100 price range as a good value price point, you've already made a subjective, emotional decision without any real objective, performance based criteria to back it up. Full carbon scales add to the performance how?

The only way $100 can be justified as "value" is in comparison to more expensive knives. From a marketing/pricing strategy point of view, this is one of the benefits of having over-priced offerings in your product line. Establish that as accepted by the market, then all you need to do is carefully walk back material choices based on perceived manufacturing costs and sold as PERCEIVED performance differentiator and voila, you can establish inflated prices all the way down your product line. Bike component manufacturers like Shimsno and Campagnols figured this out in the 80s.

The value is in well manufactured low price point stuff. The Toyota Corollas of the knife world. Everything above that is the perception of luxury. IMO.
 
stabman said:
Kershaw.
Kershaw is the "value line" of KAI.
KAI comprises Kershaw, Zero Tolerance, and Shun (Shun is the kitchen knives division).

You keep talking about Zero Tolerance costing more...missing the entire point that Zero Tolerance is the more expensive line of pocket knives offered by KAI!

So yeah, Kershaw.
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I know that Kershaw is the budget line but that is not what I'm talking about. Kershaw has become more and more geared toward those $15-$30 Walmart knives so to a buyer that is into knives and is an actual enthusiast they would equate quality much more with a $80-$120 ZT than an $80-$120 Kershaw. To be honest part of the reason I don't buy and promote ZT products is because in my mind I already see KAI and think Walmart special. Now I know that ZT is much higher quality but everyone has their reasons for not necessarily being the biggest fan of a certain knife company and that is mine. I see those flipper designs and they just remind me too much of the Volt SS and the Cryo and in my mind I then have an issue swallowing the price asked. So I'm sure a budget ZT branded line would probably do a bit better with actual enthusiasts than the Kershaw branded knives.

I've been in the auto industry for a good 20 years now and I can tell you that if given the choice most people would take the same car with the same equipment at the same price if it had a Lexus badge on it instead of a Toyota badge. Put them side by side and people will equate Lexus with being a bit more luxurious. Same with ZT. The Kershaw branded knives have gone the way of Walmart shelves and forgotten about better materials and tight tolerances.
 
Why do people only think of materials when it come to knives . Labor is a big part of value . You have a guys working on a CNC machine making more than $20 bucks an HR you have people sharpening by hand making a living you have people you call for customer support you also have shipping and receiving an assembly line all these people get paid and make a living . Plus insurance and everything else .
 
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