Best value in a production knife brand

RAT 1, Spyderco Chaparral, Delica, Sage 1, Byrd especially the Ti Cara Cara, Cold Steel Voyager Series and pretty much anything you can grab in the discontinued AUS8A series of steel. Kershaw has some pretty decent offerings out there. All of these mentioned are $100 or below...several way below that mark....Lots of good value out there, IMHO!
 
I have to agree with Pinnah on this, I used to buy $100 knives all the time years ago, but as the prices kept going up I was having a hard time justifying spending that much on knives that didn't even function as well as some of my cheaper knives.
Why spend $150+ on a new benchmade, spyderco, or ZT when my izula is stronger and my opinel cuts better. I now mostly edc a small fixed blade and a thinner slicy folder like an opinel, along with my multi tool I have all the bases covered with tools that are more specialized and work better than one stout folder, all for less money.

I get more happiness from using a trusted set of tools everyday than I do from buying the newest offerings from the big three.

I still find the spyderco delica and endura to be good values, though I wish the stretch were similarly priced as I like that one best.
The best values imo are victorinox saks, opinels, moras, beckers, and the rat series of folders.
 
It's been a while since I've seen a new Spyderco that seemed like a "good value". Rising prices coupled with MAP are hurting both Spyderco and ZT along those lines. When you see the new models from both those companies release at prices consistently above $200, it's hard to put them up against some of the offerings from Kizer. Between the Vanguard series ($50-100) and the Prime series ($100-150), the traditional knife powerhouses of Spyderco and ZT don't stand a chance. I still buy Spydercos and ZTs, I just don't delude myself into thinking they're a "value purchase". I buy them because I want them.

Below $50, I give the "Value Win" to RealSteel knives. At around a $30 price tag, their knives are significantly better than some of the usual contenders from Ontario, Kershaw, Buck and Byrd.

Above $200, one first has to determine if Value Knives exist, lol. If they do, they'd be one of the upstart Chinese companies like WE Knives. What WE brings to the table in the $200-300 range surpasses Spydercos and ZT's in design, fit, finish and materials.

It's really kind of sad to not see any US manufactured knives offering high value. I think the closest you might come would be a good (rare) specimen of a Buck Vantage or maybe a Kershaw Link/Skyline/Leek.
 
miltmaldo said:
Why do people only think of materials when it come to knives . Labor is a big part of value . You have a guys working on a CNC machine making more than $20 bucks an HR you have people sharpening by hand making a living you have people you call for customer support you also have shipping and receiving an assembly line all these people get paid and make a living . Plus insurance and everything else .
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Seems like the materials make the biggest differences in pricing though. It costs the same, or close to the same amount of money to pay a guy to run the machine that puts out a $30 Kershaw that it does to run the machine that puts out the ZT. The customer service is still there when you buy a Kershaw vs a ZT. And they still have to pay that same person to box them up and ship them out. So yeah, it seems like materials make the biggest difference in pricing. Quite frankly they should. It's just that I feel it's getting more and more crazy and out of hand every year.
 
I find this discussion funny in a way. I go through this every day, people arguing what I charge for an air conditioning repair. Nowadays anyone can go on line and find prices of the parts needed for a repair. An expansion valve costs about $50.....if you need one the repair will cost you around $450 or so. Seems like highway robbery doesn't it??? It's not. Existing freon must be recovered. Takes about an hour plus the tools needed are over $1000. Duct work, on some installs, must be cut to access the valve then must be patched. Unit has to be evacuated, vacuum pump. Takes bout an hour and tools required cost close to $800.........and on and on.
Stating that the materials required to make a knife cost $50 so how can anyone charge $300 for the finished product is ridiculous.
Just my opinion.
Joe
 
mjpgolf1 said:
How much more do you think it really costs to make any given knife? Go check out some of these knife makers sites that sell materials and you will see just how cheap knife materials are. Especially when buying in bulk. Knife brands are now just nothing more than hype and marketing. There isn't a production knife on the planet made on an assembly line that costs $150 more in materials than any other given folding knife. The process to assemble is basically the same no matter what materials are used when we're talking about quality construction. These companies all use the same basic equipment and source their materials from probably one or two of the same places. So it basically all comes down to how much can a company hype their product up to justify how much they sell it for.
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This!!!!!

As Jeff Randall said, 95% of the knife industry is BS.
 
The price to value getting out of hand. I like Mora knives. I about fell over when this years offering is over $100. While I do expect increases as the cost of doing business (materials, benefits such as healthcare, other over head) increases it just seems out of proportion to the product offered. I do like some of the major players Spydies, Benchmade,Esse etc and have knives ranging from Spiderco bugs. Moras, Saks up to BM gold class and limited edition Pro-tech. This year I'm not seeing much that will tempt me open my wallet. I won't be paying a premium just for a name on a knife. Without the name a knife of similar materials can be had for less but provide just as much enjoyment and quality is the same or better. I'm leaning towards Saks and customs this year. I bought my first knife off the exchange this week.
 
But you're not paying for just the knife. You're paying for the whole package. Yes Chris Reeve knives are expensive. But there customer service is beyond any knife company out there. ZT and Benchmade are great with warranty as well. You're not just buying the knife for a year or 2. With the sharpenings and repairs and everything they do for free for the life of the knife it makes it more than worth the cost. Benchmade sending out pocket clips to anyone that asks. That all costs money. And I don't mind paying extra for that kind of service and warranty.
 
How true RD! Sent a 760 in to Benchmade. I am the third owner. Detent was very light. Called up and wasn't sure if it would be covered under warranty.
They sharpened the blade, beautifully, did the repair, put all new screws and hardware in it and charged me nothing. They also sent me 5 deep carry clips for free. Had the knife back in a week.
That is just one of my experiences with them.
Just because I didn't pay for that stuff, it wasn't free for them.
Had great experiences with ZT and Spydie also......above and beyond costs.
Joe
 
Spyderco as they have quality at nearly every price point.

mjpgolf1 said:
I would like to hear what you guys consider some of the best values, best bang for your buck, in higher end production knife brands and why you feel they are worth what the manufacturer, or dealer, is selling them for.
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To me, this is pretty much moot as the knives I've gotten recently, be it production or custom, were purchased right here on the Exchange. Sure, some of them might be used, but the value cannot be beat in my opinion.
 
For me it has to be (some) Spyderco, all Victorinox, Moras, some Cold Steel (AUS8 mainly), some Ontarios and KaBars

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Im not certain, but it seems toe me that these nicer knives from production lines are made with a lot tighter tolerances and are much more precise and smoother operating than cheap models. The delica from spyderco is a great knife but it does not compare to the sophistication of the native5. If the delica is good enough for you then stick with it, there is no point in spending more money, but i thunk it is asking a lot to get a high performance knife for under $100 that is also us made. Plus knives with tighter tolerances require more human processesing.
 
mjpgolf1 said:
Seems like the materials make the biggest differences in pricing though. It costs the same, or close to the same amount of money to pay a guy to run the machine that puts out a $30 Kershaw that it does to run the machine that puts out the ZT. The customer service is still there when you buy a Kershaw vs a ZT. And they still have to pay that same person to box them up and ship them out. So yeah, it seems like materials make the biggest difference in pricing. Quite frankly they should. It's just that I feel it's getting more and more crazy and out of hand every year.
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I have to agree that much of the pricing is BS. Like everyone else or most everyone, manufacturers are making judgement calls on their products in terms of pricing and the price keeps going up. I think they justify the higher numbers based on the materials used.

I also enjoyed palonej's post below as it is near and dear to my own experience with pricing.

I find this discussion funny in a way. I go through this every day, people arguing what I charge for an air conditioning repair. Nowadays anyone can go on line and find prices of the parts needed for a repair. An expansion valve costs about $50.....if you need one the repair will cost you around $450 or so. Seems like highway robbery doesn't it??? It's not. Existing freon must be recovered. Takes about an hour plus the tools needed are over $1000. Duct work, on some installs, must be cut to access the valve then must be patched. Unit has to be evacuated, vacuum pump. Takes bout an hour and tools required cost close to $800.........and on and on.
Stating that the materials required to make a knife cost $50 so how can anyone charge $300 for the finished product is ridiculous.
Just my opinion.
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The HVAC business is like most. You charge based on your costs and relative to the competition. But buying a $800 or $1000 piece of equipment is not justification to charge 2x the price because you use it over and over again and everyone has the same equipment. You can't be in the business without them. One could take this a bit further and say that you can't charge any practical recovery cost for your equipment that is NECESSARY for you to provide the service you do. That is where the competition factor comes in.

With knives as mjpgolf1 said, there is a great deal of hype involved and it happens here on BF. Not blaming BF because how else are you going to learn about the stuff unless there is a venue like this other than simply buying and trying out. Your NAME means a lot in terms of what you can charge for a product or service. The NAME is a value added item from the perspective of the manufacturer.

In terms of this thread, I think the best values are in knives that are older models that are still manufactured and have not been upgraded in the steel area. A good example is the Spyderco Delica and Endura with FRN handles and VG-10 steel. Pretty darn good knives for regular use.
 
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Let's say you were in the market for a manual flipper with a 2.75"-3.25" blade length in the $150-$200 price range. Personally, the Kizer Gemini Titanium is the value leader in that category. For $170 it gives you a S35VN FFG blade, titanium frame lock and handle, blue anodized titanium backspacer & clip. Close behind is ZT 0450 at $160. Benchmade 300 and Brous Bionic 2.0 are way overpriced. That's just one person's opinion.

Here are my rough subjective value rankings for the aforementioned criteria:

  1. Kizer Gemini Frame Lock (S35VN, Titanium): $170
  2. Zero Tolerance 0450: $160
  3. Zero Tolerance 0450CF: $180
  4. Spyderco Mantra (M4, Titanium): $168
  5. Spyderco Mantra 2 (M4, Titanium): $168
  6. Spyderco Positron (S30V, CF): $168
  7. Zero Tolerance 0900 (S35VN, Titanium): $192
  8. LionSteel TRE (M390, G-10): $200
  9. Zero Tolerance 0808 (S35VN, Titanium): $200
  10. Viper Kyomi (N690, Titanium): $193
  11. Viper Kyomi (N690, CF): $185
  12. Viper Kyomi (N690, G-10): $170
  13. Benchmade 300 (154CM, G-10): $153
  14. Brous Bionic 2.0 (D2, Aluminum): $160

Looking at non-flippers, in the 2.75"-3.25" blade length range, there are more overpriced ones. For instance, Spyderco Battlestation with VG-10 and G-10 is $192! I got one last year before MAP enforcement for $149! The Japanese made Spydercos seem generally overpriced now. Benchmade Foray and Nakamura (M390 or 20CV & G-10) at $192 are somewhat overpriced.
 
Thanks, Ram -- that's a very useful list.

The Gemini, ZT 0450CF, Positron and TRE CF are personal favorites. (The CF version is $300 -- an insane price increase over the $200 G10 model; I found mine for $200.)
 
palonej said:
I find this discussion funny in a way. I go through this every day, people arguing what I charge for an air conditioning repair. Nowadays anyone can go on line and find prices of the parts needed for a repair. An expansion valve costs about $50.....if you need one the repair will cost you around $450 or so. Seems like highway robbery doesn't it??? It's not. Existing freon must be recovered. Takes about an hour plus the tools needed are over $1000. Duct work, on some installs, must be cut to access the valve then must be patched. Unit has to be evacuated, vacuum pump. Takes bout an hour and tools required cost close to $800.........and on and on.
Stating that the materials required to make a knife cost $50 so how can anyone charge $300 for the finished product is ridiculous.
Just my opinion.
Joe
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One of the problems here is that the role of human labor in manufacturing has been changing for 100 years or more and that change is accelerating. From the cotton gin and pile driver to the 3D metal printer, some of the primary effects of automation in manufacturing are to:
a) remove human labor
b) drive down costs (due to human labor)
c) improve manufacturing tolerances
d) improve manufacturing speed

Combined, manufacturing automation can take a product that was once very expensive and bespoke by skill craftsman and only available to the wealthy and can turn it into a more consistent mass produced product that is affordable to the masses.

This poses a real strain on an economy that requires the participation of citizens as consumers. What will consumers spend their money on if their needs are met by low cost/high value manufactured good? The answer is fashion, which drives purchasing even if there is no real need other than not being out of fashion. This is why "new and improved" is such a critical mythology to sustain.

A big looser, as your post shows us, are the various service industries. Why is labor expensive when parts are cheap? More to the point, why should I pay somebody to fix my thingiemabob when I can buy a new one cheaply?

Another sticky wicket not yet solved is how do you keep a work force employed when their skilled labor has been replaced with automated machinery? How much automation is too much? Does the term Luddite mean anything to anybody?

Today, my name is John Henry
 
mjpgolf1 said:
Seems like the materials make the biggest differences in pricing though. It costs the same, or close to the same amount of money to pay a guy to run the machine that puts out a $30 Kershaw that it does to run the machine that puts out the ZT. The customer service is still there when you buy a Kershaw vs a ZT. And they still have to pay that same person to box them up and ship them out. So yeah, it seems like materials make the biggest difference in pricing. Quite frankly they should. It's just that I feel it's getting more and more crazy and out of hand every year.
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Consumer based economies are out of hand. That's the real issue here.

If you not seen it, I highly recommend watching the short video "The Story of Stuff", particularly their critique of consumerism as a national economic strategy.

Companies can't survive unless they convince consumers that there is a "new and improved" that will make all things well and do it again, repeatedly.

It *IS* crazy and you have to step away from it from time to time.
 
pinnah said:
Consumer based economies are out of hand. That's the real issue here.

If you not seen it, I highly recommend watching the short video "The Story of Stuff", particularly their critique of consumerism as a national economic strategy.

Companies can't survive unless they convince consumers that there is a "new and improved" that will make all things well and do it again, repeatedly.

It *IS* crazy and you have to step away from it from time to time.
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New and improved is the key and selling that aspect is crucial for companies to convince consumers to buy the new and improved version even though in many cases the old version works just fine. The new and improved version (in the case of modern knives.... steel type, use of Titanium, carbon fiber, formerly G10 and prior to that micarta.) But the type of steel and titanium sticks out as justification for the new product because most people don't really know about the other stuff.

The HVAC example is a good one as at least for the present, it is usually cheaper to repair and replace individual components than to replace the entire unit itself until the useful lifespan (in most cases the warranty period) has been reached and that lifespan has become shorter and shorter because of using cheaper materials to cut cost at the manufacturing end but still work.... at least for a while. When consumers can fix or replace their own systems, the whole service industry will fall apart. They are essentially designed to fail after about 10-12 years. Systems lasting for 25 years are unheard of now, but were common place 40 years ago.

Added: Consider the entrance of Japanese cars into the US in the 70's..... in 20 years, it completely changed the auto industry. US made Cars were being replaced at about 40-50K miles and along come the Japanese and they last easily over 100K miles. I have a Toyota that has 225K miles on it and it is still chugging along. Compare that to American cars made in the 60 an 70's and expectations on how long they will last.
 
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pinnah said:
Consumer based economies are out of hand. That's the real issue here.

If you not seen it, I highly recommend watching the short video "The Story of Stuff", particularly their critique of consumerism as a national economic strategy.

Companies can't survive unless they convince consumers that there is a "new and improved" that will make all things well and do it again, repeatedly.

It *IS* crazy and you have to step away from it from time to time.
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You're forgetting that the vast majority of folks who buy knives--even pricier ones--don't give a crap about "new and improved."
They buy one or two knives, and that's it.

Sure, the collectors, hoarders and knuts around here buy multiple knives (even the "low price snobs" on knife forums tend to buy more than one or two knives), but the billions of other people out there aren't buying huge gobs of knives.
 
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