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Most knives from major knife companies are overpriced!
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- Thread starter mjpgolf1
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Well, if they were overpriced, people wouldn't buy them.
Then the companies that produced overpriced knives would go away, leaving only the companies whose knives were not overpriced.
Seems like most knives from major knife companies are in fact not overpriced.
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I look at it like this:
-Knives will not impress girls to sleep with you (or men either, for the ladies or guys that swing that way)
-They will not get you promoted at work
-Snobs on the street will not congratulate you on an expensive knife
-Knife companies are not subsidized by the government like failing banks or utilities
They are entirely dependent upon the business of customers who can at any point decide not to buy their product; these customers would not even inconvenience themselves as long as they already own a knife or two (from any company).
Hence, the idea that scores of companies exist out there making a profit by churning out vastly overpriced products seems rather absurd.
-Knives will not impress girls to sleep with you (or men either, for the ladies or guys that swing that way)
-They will not get you promoted at work
-Snobs on the street will not congratulate you on an expensive knife
-Knife companies are not subsidized by the government like failing banks or utilities
They are entirely dependent upon the business of customers who can at any point decide not to buy their product; these customers would not even inconvenience themselves as long as they already own a knife or two (from any company).
Hence, the idea that scores of companies exist out there making a profit by churning out vastly overpriced products seems rather absurd.
You know different folks than I do.
Like you, most folks I know who buy knives only have a few. But, unlike you, the folks I know pretty much buy knives in the sub-$50 range.
The OP was talking about the $100-$200 production folder market and I don't know any folks who buy such knives who aren't "into knives" as some folks are "into cameras" or "into motorcycles" or what have you.
There's a brand new knife, but it's not very clear
That people from good homes are using this year
It's loud and tasteless and I've used it before
You flick it while you're dancing on the whole dance floor
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Well, my friends--some of them--saw the knives I have and decided to get a quality one.
As in one...they do not see the point in buying another expensive one.
Why spend that kind of cash on a knife unless it means you won't have to buy another one, right?
That is their thinking on it, and I can see the point of it.
Other people I have known, including a member here who hasn't posted in a few years now, accumulated a fair number of knives, some of which were custom even, until he knew what he wanted in a knife, and sold off the ones he didn't want.
He certainly has less than 10 now, and it's probably closer to five.
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Some great comments here. As another example I've been into firearms for quite some time. I conceal carry a pistol everywhere I go and I'm also into AR-15s. Ive watched the gun market swing up and down with pricing but the last few years it's been getting better and better for the consumer. Pricing in this market are much more about supply and demand and government leaders so price increases are a bit more justified in my opinion. Companies are now putting out much higher quality pistols and rifles and they are trying to see how low they can price them to gain sales and win over the market. With knives I've watched the opposite happen over the last few years. Sure the quality has gotten better but the prices have seemed to skyrocket instead of the latter. As a business owner myself I know one can only gouge for so long before they begin to price out people. With companies hitting the scene like Kizer I find it hard to believe that companies can't make a high quality knife and offer it at a reasonable price. We are talking about a very small peice of steel and a handle here. Now if these companies were offering hand made products then that would be different because as a collector there is value in owning a piece that has been carefully hand crafted by a skilled craftsman. But these knives are being shot off of a machine and boxed up for sale. If I've learned one thing in business it's that you can have 99 people out of 100 saying great things about your company and that 1 that is telling people to stay away can ruin you over time. So now instead of coming here and talking about how great these new knives are and how affordable they are there are people that are starting to stand up and say wait a second, these knife prices are starting to get carried away. I just think these companies need to stop gouging and start leveling these prices out.
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Why spend big bucks on a gun when Norinco makes them for such low prices?
They shoot bullets down range or into animals well enough.
Somehow, I doubt you'll agree with this position.
SALTY
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That's why we have premium priced mediocre materials and so-so fit & finish on knives that are sold because of hype and/or perceived connection with the owner/founder in regards to certain brands.
I know, because I own a safe full of them; but at least I carry and use about seven of them in rotation.
miltmaldo
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The fact is that MAP change the hole value game . ZT BEnchmade and Spyderco don't make more money on there knives the retailers do . Three years ago I was debating between the Domino and the 0801 . I was able to get the 0801 for $145 from a reputable dealer better value than the domino . The dealer that sold it to me was more than happy to sell it for to me for that price . Now the greedy ones are the brick and mortar .
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SALTY
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Benchmade customer service has impressed me. When I buy a knife, I am not just buying a knife - but a relationship ... and Benchmade provides value in that regard!
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The fact is that MAP change the hole value game . ZT BEnchmade and Spyderco don't make more money on there knives the retailers do . Three years ago I was debating between the Domino and the 0801 . I was able to get the 0801 for $145 from a reputable dealer better value than the domino . The dealer that sold it to me was more than happy to sell it for to me for that price . Now the greedy ones are the brick and mortar .
I was in a local outdoor shop here in the Cleveland area and talk about greedy, they had a DLC PM2 priced at $220 and when I asked why the guy behind the counter said "because that's the model with the special black coating on the blade". I laughed a bit and pulled the same knife out of my pocket and told him if he's looking for a deal to check out Amazon, and that I just received mine in the mail the day before for $135 delivered. Talk about crazy.
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Sure we are all buying those services, but look at it this way. What do new washers cost, or a new blade "which they still charge for", or a damaged scale? My point is that there isn't too much that goes into a knife parts wise so that equals pretty easy servicing.
I sent a mini Griptilian back to Benchmade a few weeks ago for an off center blade, which seems to be extremely common with benchmades, at least the ones I've owned which is, or should be, unacceptable for a $100 plastic handled 154cm bladed knife. Either way, I paid just under $100 for the knife new. I paid my own shipping and handling out there, which I sent it priority mail two day. I received the knife back with new omega springs and a blade that was still off center. Not to mention it took almost 10 days to ship back because they sent it the cheapest possible way they could. Now including the shipping how much do you think it cost them to so called "fix" this knife. The springs have to be a whole .25 cents and the shipping I'm sure they have a deal with UPS and get a commercial rate. So maybe a total of $4-$5 and the 10 minutes it takes to replace the springs. So they are still quite a bit ahead on my purchase and to top it off my knife is still not right. I'm sure they figure that most people won't even bother with returning a knife to them so they offer the "full service warranty" with that in mind. I'm sure they have statistics of what percentage of knives ever make it back for any kind of servicing. The worst part is that the knife is still not right and I've heard many similar stories of the same thing. Even if they replace an entire blade they charge $30-$40 for the service. I would imagine they are even making money at that number but they make it seem like $30 for a new blade is such a deal because the knife is so damn expensive in the first place. I know they send out pocket clips and they are great at doing that in a timely manner, but how much do you think it costs them to do this in comparison to what they make on their knife sales, and what percentage of people that buy a Benchmade knife even know about the pocket clips. It's all about "Perceived Value" with a lot of companies. And Benchmade along with other knife companies are good at putting up the smoke screen. They aren't stupid or they wouldn't be in business in the first place. So I'm sure they have ways of making money even when the customer thinks they are doing him a huge favor.
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Well Spyderco won't even replace a blade or do anything besides sharpening and they also charge for shipping and any replacement parts you want including clips. Benchmade could do nothing and people would still buy them but they at least try. I agree, I'm sure the parts don't cost a lot. But they do more than other companies.
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Best value for money are definitely a fixed blades made by Kyzliar,. A.R.Zlatoust and Kyzliar Supreme...
Folding knives are just folding knives to me, pocket can openers and such and just can't find them much of f a use in wilderness and within other main tasks, that knife is expected to make.
Folding knives are just folding knives to me, pocket can openers and such and just can't find them much of f a use in wilderness and within other main tasks, that knife is expected to make.
SALTY
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There are companies that charge for replacement clips.
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Spyderco byrd knives, especially the Crow 2 and Raven 2
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Oh I definitely give them credit on trying. I'm just disappointed that I spent all that money on their knives and the one time I use the service the knife comes back with the same issue. Would just expect more if I'm spending top dollar. As for Spyderco and others charging for clips and not offering blade replacement that is yet another disappointment. I've always been very happy with Spyderco, and I think they offer some great knives at a good price point in comparison to other brands, Also love that the owner is super involved here and goes out of his way to make issues right when he can. The replacement clips would be nice though because as a very light knife user most of the wear on my knives is on the pocket clips. So it's a nice touch to refresh a knife with a replacement clip every now and then.
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I personally dont mind paying a little extra to buy at a local retail store. I get to support my local economy plus i am able to examine the blades to find the best one as far as blade centering and fit and finish go. You cant do that online. Plus when i buy from my local authorized dealer i have not to worry about counterfeits. To me that is worth the extra 5 or 10 percent it normally costs. However, i got my benchmade 940-1 from my local authorized retailer for ten dollars cheaper than it is online from any authorized dealer. Buying from local retailer is not an absolute guarantee that you are paying the highest price
Sal Glesser
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Interesting thread. Certainly a lack of understanding for sure. MJP, you say you are in business, but I would guess it's not manufacturing?
First of all, the first major difference in the cost of product is the country of manufacture. To compare a knife made in China to a knife made in the US is not realistic. I will try to share some info for you.
USA - $1.00 = $1.00
Japan - $1.00 = about $1.00 (although the price of the Yen varies and it could go from the $1.00 costing $.80 to $1.25
Europe - $1.00 = about $1.20 (although this also varies from $1.10 - $1.50)
Taiwan - $1.00 = about $.80 (Spyderco ships US steel to Japan which brings it to about 1 /1
China - $1.00 = $.18
I can make a knife in China, boxed and ready to sell for the cost of the raw steel used to make a knife in Golden. A knife being sold for $50 almost has to be made in China, regardless of what the maker says. This is primarily because the Chinese value their Yuan at about 1/6th of a dollar. (equivalent to a 3rd world country). That's why they are taking over the mfg world. Try to buy a coffee pot made in the US.
It is very difficult to make a knife in the US, Japan, Europe or Taiwan that would sell for less than $100. Makers are almost forced to make knives (or parts) in China to meet the market demands for a low cost product.
This is not counting quality levels which can change costs by about 4 to 5 times as much. These differences are just country of origin.
Equipment for knife making is very expensive. $800,000 for a laser, $500,000 for a grinder + the interest to the bank for the money to purchase this equipment. This is typical and doesn't add in CNC equipment, assembly equipment, etc. Labor at $20 / hr, FICA taxes cost the company 7% in addition to wages. Facility costs and maintenance for same (rent or mortgage). Now add in benefits (medical insurance, vacations, marketing costs (shows, advertising, etc) and the costs just to get a decent knife to the market is high.
D2 can be had for $5 / lb, CPM and CTS steels are closer to $20 / lb. some steels cost more. There is close to a lb in an average fixed blade and half that for a folder. Victorinox and Opinel steels are much less. Processing a steel like S90 can cost twice as much as 440C.
This is just basic info. If you need more specific info, I'd be pleased to share. I think the real issue is that the costs of mfg are growing and salaries or not. The so called "Hype" may be true of some companies, but not most.
Now add in CQI, new tooling for model improvements, close tolerances (.001 or less), R&D and development costs, royalties for designers and the toll goes up. I believe that most of the opinions expressed here are with little knowledge of manufacturing.
sal
First of all, the first major difference in the cost of product is the country of manufacture. To compare a knife made in China to a knife made in the US is not realistic. I will try to share some info for you.
USA - $1.00 = $1.00
Japan - $1.00 = about $1.00 (although the price of the Yen varies and it could go from the $1.00 costing $.80 to $1.25
Europe - $1.00 = about $1.20 (although this also varies from $1.10 - $1.50)
Taiwan - $1.00 = about $.80 (Spyderco ships US steel to Japan which brings it to about 1 /1
China - $1.00 = $.18
I can make a knife in China, boxed and ready to sell for the cost of the raw steel used to make a knife in Golden. A knife being sold for $50 almost has to be made in China, regardless of what the maker says. This is primarily because the Chinese value their Yuan at about 1/6th of a dollar. (equivalent to a 3rd world country). That's why they are taking over the mfg world. Try to buy a coffee pot made in the US.
It is very difficult to make a knife in the US, Japan, Europe or Taiwan that would sell for less than $100. Makers are almost forced to make knives (or parts) in China to meet the market demands for a low cost product.
This is not counting quality levels which can change costs by about 4 to 5 times as much. These differences are just country of origin.
Equipment for knife making is very expensive. $800,000 for a laser, $500,000 for a grinder + the interest to the bank for the money to purchase this equipment. This is typical and doesn't add in CNC equipment, assembly equipment, etc. Labor at $20 / hr, FICA taxes cost the company 7% in addition to wages. Facility costs and maintenance for same (rent or mortgage). Now add in benefits (medical insurance, vacations, marketing costs (shows, advertising, etc) and the costs just to get a decent knife to the market is high.
D2 can be had for $5 / lb, CPM and CTS steels are closer to $20 / lb. some steels cost more. There is close to a lb in an average fixed blade and half that for a folder. Victorinox and Opinel steels are much less. Processing a steel like S90 can cost twice as much as 440C.
This is just basic info. If you need more specific info, I'd be pleased to share. I think the real issue is that the costs of mfg are growing and salaries or not. The so called "Hype" may be true of some companies, but not most.
Now add in CQI, new tooling for model improvements, close tolerances (.001 or less), R&D and development costs, royalties for designers and the toll goes up. I believe that most of the opinions expressed here are with little knowledge of manufacturing.
sal