Blade Steel.

Officer's Match said:
Haven't steepened the angle at all, in fact through touchups it's likely more obtuse that original. I have yet to do any "tough" cutting with it. Packaging tape, envelope opening, occasionally through the light plastic strapping that paper cartons are held shut with (I own a printing company). Really haven't even subjected it to cardboard much at all. I have seen guys that had theirs re-hardened claim they were tested beforehand and came in under 58, and I suspect that's my problem as well. I have put my S35V PM2 through much tougher cutting and yet to damage its edge. I want to point out here that I am really in love with both my Zaan and my Starbenza - I just wish the steel were a little harder (and that the option existed to get it done by CRK at my cost without voiding my warranty).
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I am not questioning your experiences, but I have to ask you to clarify: are you stating that you rolled an edge on your CRK by opening envelopes with it?
 
MostMenAreRuthless said:
I am not questioning your experiences, but I have to ask you to clarify: are you stating that you rolled an edge on your CRK by opening envelopes with it?
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Not likely, I'd bet it was the plastic banding. Mind you, it was not thick "zip tie" material. Good thing is that the edge repairs very easily.
 
Officer's Match said:
Not likely, I'd bet it was the plastic banding. Mind you, it was not thick "zip tie" material. Good thing is that the edge repairs very easily.
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The reason I am inquiring further is that I want to point out that this is NOT the norm with CRK's. I have cut much tougher materials: wood, cardboard, zip ties, plastics, etc and have yet to damage my edge. Dulled it some? Yes. Damage? No.

As I said, I am not implying that YOUR experience isn't valid, but is a far outlier on the bell curve.
 
I love both my Sebenzas a lot. Will I buy another one? I would say no but that could change. I have a lot of other knives(BM and Spyderco's) in CPM-M4, 154CM, S30V, D2. I prefer other steels than S35VN for what I use knives for everyday. But like I said, I love both my CRK's and carry them more than all my other knives. I just sharpen them more often.
 
OM, you may have already checked this and taken care of it, but is there a possibility that you are dealing with a persistent wire edge? I have found it easy if I don't pay attention when I sharpen to form a persistent wire edge with many of the higher carbide steels - S30V, S35VN, D2. This is especially true when I reprofile the edge or do a more extensive sharpening. Recently I checked some of my edges very carefully and found that several of my knives actually had a wire edge on parts of the edge. This might explain the rolling. Have you sharpened it enough to be sure you are beyond the factory edge and into clean metal?

I know other makers like Spyderco get consistently good marks when it comes to heat treat, but I have not noticed a difference in use between my CRK and Spyderco, both S30V and S35VN.
 
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I know this is totally random but I have to ask because im just curious to know about your experiences with s35vn after cutting some cardboard let's say a small box(about 50 cuts)if you can still slice phone book paper clean but it barely shaves hair off your arm,is that something normal?
How many cuts will it take after it won't shave anymore? I know it depends on the type of cardboard but Im not looking for an exact answer, I just want to know if Im within spec on my sharpening or if it is just normal.Sorry for being random, but I had to ask,(OCD) I think I find myself stroping too often :D
 
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Don M said:
OM, you may have already checked this and taken care of it, but is there a possibility that you are dealing with a persistent wire edge? I have found it easy if I don't pay attention when I sharpen to form a persistent wire edge with many of the higher carbide steels - S30V, S35VN, D2. This is especially true when I reprofile the edge or do a more extensive sharpening. Recently I checked some of my edges very carefully and found that several of my knives actually had a wire edge on parts of the edge. This might explain the rolling. Have you sharpened it enough to be sure you are beyond the factory edge and into clean metal?

I know other makers like Spyderco get consistently good marks when it comes to heat treat, but I have not noticed a difference in use between my CRK and Spyderco, both S30V and S35VN.
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Thanks Don M, to be totally honest and fair I cannot completely rule that out. I have found the bur to be much smaller and more difficult to detect on S35V. I use a printer's loop and thus usually do a pretty good job of dealing with a wire edge, but lately have been on a bit of an Emerson kick which can spoil you re: easy sharpening (I have been very impressed with what convexing a chisel edge can do - sharp, tough, and easy).
 
I did not check my blades with a loupe, but I thought I had a good edge on them, they felt sharp and I could not see anything. One day I checked the full length of the edge carefully with my finger nail and discovered some sections where the nail caught on the edge slightly.

MB, I know of no steel that that will keep a hair popping edge after much of any cardboard cutting. Also, cardboard varies a LOT in terms of abrasiveness. I have cut 100 feet of cardboard (measured) before a 440C blade (BM mini-grip) would no longer shave my arm hair, and other cardboard that destroyed the edge of D2 much faster. Arm hair varies in how easily shaved as well.

When I got a small Sebenza 21 last year I did a simple "test" to see how it stacked up against Spyderco's S35VN because I kept seeing threads like this one. I cut strips from a thick box used to ship gallon chemical jugs - the paper was not all that heavy, but the corrugation was about 1" thick. It had also been in my attic for a couple of years, so it may have had insulation dust, along with regular dust, on it. I used a PM2 in S30V, a PM2 in S35VN, and the small 21. All three started at the same sharpness as far as I could tell - easily shaving my arm hair. After 13 feet cut with each blade (used up the box) all three would still shave arm hair but not as cleanly. All three seemed to be at about the same sharpness. Yes, I know this is not a "scientific" test, and it was not all that much cardboard cut (especially compared to the extensive tests others do) but it told me what I wanted to know - CRK S35VN is in the same ball park. My S30V Sebenza has done well also, I have not noticed any issues with it, likewise the S30V I have from Buck, Benchmade, and Spyderco. Maybe I'm just lucky and the samples I have are at the better end of the hardness range? In the end I have not had any complaints about CRK's steel or heat treat.

I should add that after the brief test all three blades showed scratches from the cardboard, so it was pretty abrasive.
 
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More times than not its a burr or wire edge making people think a steel underperforms for its category. I have been able to take 1095 and sharpen it right and cut lots of cardboard (no crazy abrasive cardboard, I do know those types and they chipped the heck out of my Sebenza) and still cut newsprint and shave hair. Most problems with steel are simply due to a lack of understanding of sharpening (which I also had for a great number of years).

I had my S30v regular dent a little on a zip tie. Never really got rolls any other time.

People that talk about cutting typical cardboard with a sebenza and having it not shave after have not finished the edge properly IMO.

Kevin


Officer's Match said:
Thanks Don M, to be totally honest and fair I cannot completely rule that out. I have found the bur to be much smaller and more difficult to detect on S35V. I use a printer's loop and thus usually do a pretty good job of dealing with a wire edge, but lately have been on a bit of an Emerson kick which can spoil you re: easy sharpening (I have been very impressed with what convexing a chisel edge can do - sharp, tough, and easy).
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richstag said:
More times than not its a burr or wire edge making people think a steel underperforms for its category.
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I agree with this statement. And sometimes (often?) this is true of factory edges since most factory edges are finished with power equipment, which very easily form a burr. This would explain the somewhat common phenomena of poor performance from a new knife that improves significantly after a few sharpenings.

As far as poorly finished edges explaining why a blade won't shave after cutting cardboard, it depends on how much cardboard is actually cut and how abrasive it is. Just opening a box shouldn't do it, but opening a bunch of boxes, or breaking down a stack of cardboard, most likely will remove the shaving edge. It will retain a useful cutting edge far beyond that, but I have yet to find a steel that will cut large amounts of cardboard and retain the ability to shave. It depends on the definition of "large."
 
As I said, I cannot honestly rule it out. Thing is, I wasn't aware of any of the internet-forum-conventional-wisdumb when I made my observation, and I'm far from new at knives and sharpening. And partially due to the $-factor of pushing the edge of a $125 knife vs. a $450 knife, I've used my PM2's harder, yet have experienced less need to sharpen. Given the PM2s are V edged and the Zaan is convexed, I would have thought the Zaan would if anything had an advantage.
 
Well if you know it's not a burr then you can put it on the steel. :)

Officer's Match said:
As I said, I cannot honestly rule it out. Thing is, I wasn't aware of any of the internet-forum-conventional-wisdumb when I made my observation, and I'm far from new at knives and sharpening. And partially due to the $-factor of pushing the edge of a $125 knife vs. a $450 knife, I've used my PM2's harder, yet have experienced less need to sharpen. Given the PM2s are V edged and the Zaan is convexed, I would have thought the Zaan would if anything had an advantage.
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I guess the future usage will sort it out. My Umnumzaan was my second ever S35V knife (first was a Large Starbenza) and first one I ever sharpened. I could possibly see not having fully removed the wire edge given how much smaller and harder is is to detect compared to my previous knives. Now that I've re-sharpened the Umnumzaan a second time being extra thorough, I'll confidently rule that possibility out should more edge issues occur.
 
Blues said:
I don't have a dog in this fight but will paraphrase some thoughts from custom knife maker Jerry Halfrich, a very close friend of mine whom I have had this very discussion with many times over the years.

Jerry was one of the very few makers to experiment early on with making blades with CPM M4 steel and his blades won a variety of cutting competitions. Few makers know "sharp" like Jerry does.

That said, having worked with myriad steels over the years, Jerry prefers CPM-154 for most of his knives (and they are intended for hard use in the field...from hunting to wilderness use).

The reason for his position is "balance". Hardness, toughness, corrosion resistance, ability to sharpen in the field, edge holding etc are all parts of the equation in his search for "balance".

And while Jerry is impressed with what he has been able to achieve with M4 over the years, he always recommends "balance" over all things (even to the point of often dissuading his customers from seeking the "super steel" they originally sought).

It seems to me that Chris Reeve is similarly seeking "balance" with his offerings.

Having said all that, there is no perfect steel and as with most everything else in life, any choice involves compromise.

That's all I got.
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I'm kinda late to this party, but this is a major point. I make my own fixed blades, and it is all about trade-offs. When I make a knife, I have an intended use or user in mind and can vary things like steel, hardness, thickness, etc. Production knives do not have this ability so a balance or compromises have to be made to produce a product that works for most users. I guess another option is a very broad product line. I haven't seen data on how S35VN performs at 58-59 and 60-61, but I would guess that toughness increases with a lower hardness. The sacrifice may be edge retention. I say may because again, I don't know. I wonder how many warranty blades CRK gets back. I'm guessing fewer than if the blade was at 60. This affects the business aspect as does the reported improved workability of S35VN. I like the fact that CRK has a few models and they do them very well. I can appreciate this much more than companies that offer and then discontinue many models and move from one "super steel" to the next.

I always end up having to sharpen my knives regardless of steel or hardness of the steel. I want my pocket knives to sharpen easy since I use them the most. I favor edge retention to toughness on my fixed blades because I do not want to stop and sharpen a blade while breaking down an elk in the field. I like to use D2 at 60-61 to make by blades. It gives me a very good "balance" for the intended use of my knives and my intended users (hunters). Anyway, good point Blues.
 
I'm not particular fond of S35VN, but I really like the complete "package" of my Small Insingo Micarta.:D
 
Thanks for the answers, it was really helpful and was just what I wanted to know. There's been a lot of good points that have been made throughout this thread and I specially like the fact that most of the opinions have been unbiased.
 
I have always thought S30V stayed sharper longer than S35VN based on my comparison of my two most frequently carried knives, an S30V Sage and an S35VN CRK 21. However, I no longer believe its the steel chemistry as the sharpest and longest lasting edge I have in my collection is a Bark River fixed blade also in S35VN. I think the real subject here is possibly the hardness CRK chooses, more than the steel itself. Having said that I've never chipped my Sebenza, so it seems very tough.
 
Here's a post showing my Umnumzaan at 20 degrees inclusive with a 30 degree inclusive microbevel:

Cynic2701 said:
Here's my Umnumzaan:

2013-02-03_18-05-05_74_zps090dbe35.jpg
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I've cut zipties and whittle wood with no ill effects. I shaved some slivers of metal off of a pair of cheap tongs to prove a point about differences in steels to a friend, and only had a small chip in the edge. In my experience CRK's S30V keeps an edge as long as Spyderco's S30V on the Military.
 
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