Blade steels... Are we suckers?

Steel is a secondary consideration to me when purchasing a knife.

Yes, to some extent steels are hype. The problem I notice is that when one becomes a steel snob they don't even know it's happened. So I try to remain appreciative of the different primary qualities of different types of steel. It helps that some of my favorite knives are of lesser steels and stay in my rotation.

Like you, a few of my favorite blades are 420, 440-x, 1095, AUS8, etc, mainly due to the fact that some date back to the '70's and earlier. I also have knives of the so-called super steels. I don't envisage any of my knives by their steel, it's just what something I liked happened to come with. Where there is a choice I'll sometimes go for the higher rated steel if there's a purpose, sometimes I stay with what whatever is stock.

For me, steel is usually down the list after look, lines, function, F&F, feel, etc. I want something that will develop a nice sharp edge. I don't seek a "neuter a molecule" edge nor do I spend hours with stones and paper wheels. Further, the only case where I'll need that edge to last so long that I have to make a steel decision would be an extended outdoor scenario. Otherwise, if my EDC's will get me through a reasonable period of time before requiring a strop or stone that's all that really matters.
 
I think the suckers are the people who go to a gun show and pay $40-50 for a $9 Chinese knife.
 
Sonnydaze said:
True. Your 3V steel is very tough, but is NOT reputed to hold an edge very long.
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I have found some that say it does hold an edge very well. I can't link this because it's to a dealer's site that isn't a member here. But, their staff writer claims:

"Toughness and wear resistance comes with a price however. 3V is much more expensive to buy than A2, takes more abrasives to grind and finish out which all comes down to a premium price tag.

I spend a fair amount of time hunting, butchering (hogs and deer) and camping and have had the chance to compare a Bark River Canadian Special in both 3V and A2. The Canadian Special has been on my belt for a number of successful whitetail hunts and for field dressing tasks, I saw no performance difference between the two knives. They both made quick work of the task and were still hair popping sharp when complete.

"When it comes to butchering and processing a lot of meat, the 3V’s wear resistance starts to shine. The extra wear resistance means less time touching up the edge and more time processing meat. That is a good thing because touching up a 3V edge for me is not a quick thing. I have been successful at maintaining an edge on my 3V knives with a leather hone and some compound but it is much more difficult (at least for me) than my other knives. If I let the knife get dull, it was a big challenge for me to bring it back to sharp by hand."
 
Sonnydaze said:
True. Your 3V steel is very tough, but is NOT reputed to hold an edge very long. However, I love the TUFF also and have two of them.
We buy good super-steels for the same reason that we buy a "deer-rifle" that will give us a 1/2" group at 100 yards, when we could get along just fine with a M94 Winchester lever-action for our woods hunting with 40 yard max shooting distance.
We do, because we want to, and we can, and that is okay.
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And we talk about steels the same way. 1/2 MOA in a rifle has much to do with the cartridge/load too, just as heat treat and blade geometry are AT LEAST as important as the steel is in a knife.
 
Not that I am that up on the latest in steels, but I am a bit of a sucker for the latest and greatest. But then consider what do I really NEED? In comparison to the generations preceding me, I do not depend on my knives. My grandfather probably owned only 2, 3 or 4 knives in his life. But he depended on them to work when he actually needed them. There are exceptions, of course, but for the most part those knives could not compare to modern day knives, say in heat treatment. And what was corrosion resistance? Come to think of it--sucker no. Spoiled.
 
I only use knives I can keep sharp, I don't let them get very dull. The ones I use tend to have an edge angle I can work with. S90V in a Spyderco South Fork, was very surprising to me because it's so easy to sharpen on ceramic rods. Some others in lesser steels I haven't been able to do anything with, because of the edge angle. So that's the important thing to me if I can keep a working knife sharp, not the steel so much.
 
stabman said:
Seriously though, the right steel with the right heat treat for the right job works better.

There's no "One steel to rule them all!!!", but there certainly are steels better suited to certain knifey uses.
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leghog said:
Marketing hype should never be underestimated.
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So true.

To answer your question: Blade steels... Are we suckers?

Yes, yes we are.

I use to go by marketing, until I did some reading

- Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel - By John D. Verhoeven (2005)
- Steel Metallurgy for the non metallurgist - By John D. Verhoeven
- Arthur C Reardon-Metallurgy for the non-metallurgist, second edition-Materials Park, Ohio _ ASM International (2011)
- Steel Heat Treatment Metallurgy and Technologies - George E. Totten
- Messerklingen und Stahl - R. Landes

and patent information regarding steels.

I soon realised that there is a lot of bs and marketing hype spread on the internet.

Give me a good steel with proper heat treat and geometry over a "super duper make your pants fall off super steel" with a "secret" or mediocre heat treat and even good geometry any day.

Geometry cuts and one can really improve a knives performance by just changing edge angles and finishes if it is heat treated well.

Now I am a sucker for blades steels in a package of geometry, heat treat and aesthetically pleasing to me.
 
To some extent I'm with you. After a useful enough threshold of steel is obtained the shape of the thing is far more interesting than the steel it is made from. In fact, I find many of the newer supersteel knives to be positively goofy in shape. Provided it isn't an abysmal stainless, or some pain in the jacksy carbon thing that needs constant diaper changing or it will readily rust, I'll happily take an arguably inferior steel in a better design.

That said, I don't think the dialogue should always focus on edge retention. Not only is that wrong headed but it does tend to make liars of too many people that claim they can tell the difference in daily living. Nobody wants that. I believe a more fruitful track is to additionally consider the type of geometries better steels can support. And as above, a better geometry makes for a better cutting instrument.
 
baldtaco-II said:
Provided it isn't...some...carbon thing that needs constant diaper changing or it will readily rust...
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There are some great carbon steel blades out there. Occasionally wiping down the blades just isn't a big deal. Heck I even occasionally wipe the crap off my stainless blades too.
 
I think it really depends on how often and what you use your knives for. AUS8 used to be more than enough for my daily tasks, but I recently opened a new business and that has meant many more things being shipped and much more cardboard to break down so it will fit in our recycling. Now I find AUS8 to be insufficient, but the steel didn't change, my needs did.
 
I am guilty of buying by steels pretty frequenly. Also OP my first knife was also a Gerber LST in camo and black. I loved that thing. Lost it hunting long ago. I guess the camo was a double edged sword.
I know for me I carry almost everyday I carry a high dollar knife (today is an AVO in CTS-B75P) and I am not afraid to use them. I can notice subtle differences in steels but not hundreds of dollars worth. As said Geometry plays a huge roll in performance. But for me thinking back, I think 15 years ago I would carry a Kershaw until it couldn't cut an egg before I'd sharpen it. In the last 10 years I have gotten much pickier about knives and edges and I strop probably every other day now. So I guess my standards of what a "sharp" knife is. I Know I can hand a guy a knife now that I feel needs touched up and he can't believe how sharp it is.
I guess what I'm saying is I probably have expectations honed to such that all steels really don't get a full shot before a judgment is passed. The steels have changed and no doubt gotten better but I still won't let it go past not shaving.
 
I think it depends on your needs and your mindset. I can see the appeal of super tough super sharp steels. However, for me, I prefer steels that are easier to sharpen. Basic carbon steels and decades old stainless types. I am more concerned with being able to touch up my knife with a small stone and pocket strop. Just personal preference.
 
I no longer obsess about steel. Its all in how something performs. I have had $300 folders with high end steel go dull in a week and have it be a nightmare to get the edge back. And I have had knives with 9cr18mov that rarely go dull with normal use and when i do need to bring the edge back 4 swipes on a ceramic and its shaving again. These days I only focus on the design and price. I evaluate the performance and get rid of anything that doesnt work for me. But that isnt to say I think the guys who only buy high end steel are suckers. Some of them surely are. We have all seen the guy who posts pictures of his strider when he first gets it and then 3 years later posts another picture and it looks identical to the day he bought it. And it aint because strider makes a knife impervious to wear and tear. But there are guys out there who really do rely on their knife and use it more than the average person in which i think they will see the added benefits of certain steels and heat treatments. But In many cases I think it amounts little more than bragging rights. Similar to how many carats of diamonds someone has in a ring.
 
Things that are important in every knife across the board, not in any specific order.

  • Sharpening skill
  • Use, real use
  • Geometry, blade and edge geometry
  • Edge Finish
  • Heat Treatment, Tempering etc
  • Design
  • Steel
 
Krissig12 said:
Steel is love, steel is life......:D
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Shrek!

stabman said:
"Do you know the riddle of steel?"
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Conan!

Back on topic, I think marketing has a lot to do with our choices. Super steels are awesome, and I love me some Elmax, S35VN, CTS-XHP, etc. but I can manage just fine with 154CM, 420HC and 14C28N. Hell, even my AUS8 and 8Cr13MoV blades make good users and I still enjoy carrying them often.

1095 remains a favorite of mine, regardless of the humidity of living down by the Mexican border.
 
This thread is timely as just yesterday I read a comparison review of 3 different steels. It was on another forum from a company known for it's very functional knives and outlandish marketing... Anyway it compared two Recon Scouts, one in SK-5 and one in the new O-1, and an unnamed Busse in Infi. The tests were basic and unscientific, but worthwhile for discussion purposes IMHO.

Busse Infi performed best in edge retention (cutting ability was mixed due to it being convex and the other's being V-grinds, per the author), but took twice as long to return to it's original sharpness. Once "repaired" it was undamaged and no worse for wear.

O-1 performed second best in retention and cutting ability, but in the end was harder to repair and ended up with micro-chipping which the author says will require some work to repair.

SK-5 performed worst, though still easily doing the jobs, but was the easiest and quickest to repair without any damage at all. It only took minimal stropping to bring it back.

I don't have the other steels, but find SK-5 to be outstanding in it's ability to get an edge, retain it plenty well enough for work, and easily pop back with little effort. My CS Gurkha can easily handle chopping extremely hard, seasoned mesquite. Afterwards, I steel it with a screwdriver shaft from the tool bench and maybe rub it across my leather work glove as a redneck stropping. It shaves hair at that point.

A buddy has a Bark River in 3V. It's a bear to work the edge, but he loves it's performance. To me, it's all about what you need and want. A cheap, basic steel an idiot (me) can sharpen and repair fits the bill for me. YMMV.
 
People aren't suckers because they have a preference, or because they want a 'better' product.

But look the prices for steel stock, and figure how much steel is in a typical knife. Probably not more than $2 or $3 dollars difference in most cases between 440C and modern "SuperSteels." Then look at the huge price differences between knives made with those respective steels. Does that make people who pay those markups suckers? I'm not saying. ;)
 
Riz2530 said:
Now it is CPM3V Survive Knives 5.1! Wow! It does hold an edge forever under my normal hunting, fishing, outdoors use and the upgrade in steel is plainly obvious and worth every penny.
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I don't know. Do you feel like a sucker when you use that awesome 3V? I don't think you do and nor should you!

stabman said:
Seriously though, the right steel with the right heat treat for the right job works better.
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:thumbup:
 
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