Blade steels... Are we suckers?

Riz2530 said:
Bark River has been doing just this thing! All of their A2 models were run in 3/16 stock, which cut very well because of its convex grind. Once they tested 3V enought, they started releasing the LT (lite version) of those same A2 blades but in 3V steel with 5/32 stock. This allows for exceptional cutting performance and the same lateral toughness of the 3/16 A2 blades.
Click to expand...

I've never looked into BRK too much because most of their stuff is out of my price range. I saw the Bravo LT, but I didn't realize this was happening throughout their whole lineup. Personally I think its great, and I'd love to see it from more manufacturers :).
 
In my EDC rotation I have 154, S30V, 204, M4, Cruwear and S110V. I like the better steels but I also pick the knives that I like.

Sometimes I think I can dull a knife just by looking at it. In my normal use I open envelopes, open boxes, slice apples, stuff like that. Usually nothing that will put much wear on a knife. (Now that I know how to sharpen maybe I'll find that a good edge lasts longer.) But I like to know that if I carry a knife for awhile I can count on it to still be sharp. Plus I'm prouder to own a knife that I know has a better than average steel.

I've read stories by people that used their knives a lot on the job and found that they might have to sharpen their lesser knives every day but their blades like M390 would last for 3 or more days between sharpenings.
 
not2sharp said:
I can understand seeking out good steel from a reputable maker who can properly shape and heat-treat it to work; but, I don't understand the quest for a longer lasting edge. Unless, you happen to work on the line in a slaughter house, of what possible use is a longer lasting edge? What is wrong with just touching up the edge as needed when you work with it; it has been done that way for centuries and it doesn't require much time or special tools or skills.

n2s
Click to expand...

Seriously?

Why not have an extra long lasting edge of you can afford it? It's not as if a DMT or something to touch up a super steel is priced like exotic equipment or is hard to acquire.
 
I use my knives to cut flesh, wood, plastic and paper mostly. Different knives do different jobs.

My favorite knife/steel for cutting flesh (game I kill) is 3V. I don't know about toughness and edge retention and all of that, but my SURVIVE! Knives GSO-4.1 in CPM-3V lasts forever. That's tracing along bones, cutting against bones, cutting through tendons, connective tissues, hide/skin, flesh, etc. I can strop it on my jeans once it gets a little dull and it's shaving sharp again. Magical stuff.

My favorite steel in wood is any good carbon steel like 1095 or the like, A2, D2, etc.

My favorite steel for cutting plastic and paper/cardboard is S30V.

My favorite all-around steel is M390 (properly heat treated and ground).

I dunno what all of that means, but it seems like I benefit greatly from "super steels". I can sharpen them also.
 
Suckers...yep, for the most part, it's all marketing hype fueled by demand in perceived performance.
 
ocnLogan said:
I've never looked into BRK too much because most of their stuff is out of my price range. I saw the Bravo LT, but I didn't realize this was happening throughout their whole lineup. Personally I think its great, and I'd love to see it from more manufacturers :).
Click to expand...

Not thier entire lineup, but their best sellers. The Aurora is going to be in Elmax and 3V. Just 3V for the Bravo and Canadian Special and I believe the Fox River as well
 
I will take ease of sharping over edge holding every day of the week. to me it does not matter how long a knife stays sharp, because sooner or later you have to sharpen them
 
Riz2530 said:
So I recently purchased a pricey knife with what most would consider a budget/low end steel. I haven't taken delivery of the knife yet. I bought it because I liked the design and other materials. This got me thinking... How many functional, nice knives have I passed up on because of the steel? I have always loved knives and my first real knife was a Gerber LST with a black blade and camo handle. I still have it. It is probably 25 years old and who knows what steel it was. Then the gerber EZ Out came out and I was officially a knife knut. I had Columbia Rivers, Gerbers, Bucks, and many Kershaws. All of them performed flawlessly for me and none of them had any powdered metal super alloy steel. (Not hating on CRKT, but they sold some cheapies in AUS4 and 6 which wouldnt hold an edge after single cuts on foods and paper.)

I haven't really been that impressed with S30V, CPM154 or D2. They have all cut what I needed to cut, but under normal EDC use, I didnt really feel like they gave me any major advantage over some basic steels like Kershaw's 14C28N. CPM 154 was really a dissappointment, the knife I had was a well known brand of fixed blade and didnt hold an edge for S! For the longest time my favorite fixed blade was a Buck Special (420J i think) Now it is CPM3V Survive Knives 5.1! Wow! It does hold an edge forever under my normal hunting, fishing, outdoors use and the upgrade in steel is plainly obvious and worth every penny. I wish that there were some nice folders made of 3V. That Spydie Tuff is hideous!

Most users, even knife knuts, probably couldnt tell the difference in most steels and wouldn't know otherwise unless they were told. I have a Sebenza 25 and love it. I often wonder if I would love it just as much with an expertly heat treated 440C? Have we fallen for some serious marketing hype, and now give up hundreds of dollars for a super steel? I hope to answer this question for myself with my new knife when it arrives. What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

From my experience I find that a knife made properly and with good high-grade steel requires much less sharpening.

Here is a good link to knife steels by a wizard knife maker, Mr. Joe Talmadge

http://www.zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml

A month ago I bought a Spyderco Gayle Bradley and have yet to sharpen it after daily use in my yard and shop. It must have the right mix of steel components and design. M4 steel blade, CF scales.

Here is what the Gayle Bradley said about his design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk0IxU-fuW4
 
Wall of text warning. TL;DR version: "It matters, but it's less important than almost everything else."



I say this often, but Benjamin Franklin was only half right when he said "there never was a good knife made from bad steel." Many bad knives are made from good steel, and many exceptional knives made from "good enough" steel.

Design is very similar to the OPDCA cycle:
  • Observe (understand the reasons for needing the tool)
  • Plan (design based on your understanding of the observed requirements)
  • Do (apply the prototype in real world conditions)
  • Check (to see if the tool performed as desired)
  • Act (based on the input from testing, tweak the design to better adapt it to the information gleaned from testing) then go back to step one with your new understanding and see if there's anything you missed the first time around.
Countless knives are designed to sell rather than cut, and steel selection is often nothing more than a buzz word.

In terms of importance, the first and foremost consideration is the fundamental design concept, followed by general material selection (cutlery grade steel--nothing specific besides that yet), followed by proper heat treatment and manufacturing execution, followed by specific steel type. However, for the specific steel type to really shine, the blade geometry must be optimized to showcase the steel or else perceptible differences are likely to be extremely minimal. For any given user and task(s) there is a set of optimal ranges for various characteristics ordered by priority. Matching materials/methods to these parameters is delicate work, and there are many ways to get there depending on what materials and methods you're actually using. Altering the material alone will cause a certain amount of change in how well the tool meets those requirements, but even more influential is changing the way in which those materials are applied.

One of the largest challenges in design is striking the correct balance between resilience and efficiency. These two characteristics are opposites, so the more efficient a design is, the less resilient it is, and vice versa. A 100% efficient design would be so pared down that the slightest deviation from proper use would break the tool, while a 100% resilient tool would completely fail to accomplish the task asked of it, but would be impossible to destroy. So one of the big questions you need to ask of a design is how resilient do you really need it? Because if the "built-in insurance factor" for use outside its intended range is well in excess of what you realistically need, it means that the actual performance of the tool is suffering as a result. If you take a knife made of a brittle steel and design the geometry around that, then swap the steel out for something very tough, you can make the blade thinner without risking breakage. Leaving the geometry the same would push the resiliency above and beyond the realistic needs of the user in that circumstance, because the geometry was already idealized for the needs of the user if using a more brittle steel. Many manufacturers offer the same knife in different steel options, but NONE to the best of my knowledge actually offer different geometry when that swap is made.
 
The phrase "good steel" is used a number of times here, and it's important to question what has informed your opinion of a good steel. Similarly, it's important to examine one's comfort zone and personal history with the materials.

S30V wasn't always a good reliable choice, as it were. At some point it was a fancy new powdered steel that manufacturers were learning to work with. Now it's a safe, known quantity that can be treated consistently.

New super steels are new now, and they are developed independent of the small world of cutlery enthusiasm (usually). The industry catches up, levels out, and settles into a zone where new products become common choices. Without experimentation and moving the frontier, there isn't growth.
 
I have to agree with bd and Gator. For me, less frequent sharpening=longer service life for the blade. Heavy cutting of tough, sometimes gritty material, is normal for me. As far as ease of sharpening goes, diamond plates make it easy. I have steels ranging from aus8 to m4. I like to use a steel that matches the job at hand. If people think I'm a sucker, that's okay. I really don't care.
 
I agree, I have many knives that are 440a that hold an edge and work awesome for EDC, I have several preferred 440c and high carbon knives but 3 out of 5 days of the week I carry cheaper steel fixed blades and have never been disappointed with them, even out in the woods. It wasn't until I started coming on here that all the steel prejudice's became apparent.
 
As a corollary to the present discussion, lets agree that we have a wide variety of good cutlery steels available today and that we are more than capable of producing a great knife. Yet the other side of the equation has to do with the design and loading of the knife. Some of the very large and heavy "camp" knives around today are so over engineered and used with such vigor, that the resulting force will damage the edge irrespective of the steel. It is about putting too much weight behind too fine an edge and using the wrong technique. All of the components have to fall together to produce optimum results. How a super steel performs in a 3" pocket knife may be irrelevant to its performance on a heavy chopper.

n2s
 
I got your lollipop right here...
Wj2XalY.jpg
 
hard to sharpen is a relative term..if you have diamonds then none of them are hard to sharpen and diamond stones are not that expensive..A few weeks ago I punched my buck tag on a nice big bodied 10 point..Solid 200 pound+ deer..I skinned and deboned the entire deer with a 3 1/2" bladed knife made from 3/32" thick 1095..After the entire job was done all I had to do was strop it on my belt two or three times to clean shave arm hair again..It would still cut paper through the entire deer process if I wanted.
 
Personally, I'd rather have a blade that stayed sharp a long time. In the last 15 months (since I joined BF) I've bought, sold, traded and used a lot of knives. I've learned so much, and how much a particular steel's performance can vary knife to knife, company to company.

I don't mind taking the extra time recquired to sharpen the higher end steels. I'm already sitting down at the sharpmaker anyway. I'd rather take more time to actually sharpen then have to sharpen more often.

I've broken it down to having favorite steels, one's I tolerate, and those that just won't do. Guess that is why I'm down to 10 folders and 3 fixed blades.

Faves:
CTS-XHP
CPM-M4
ZDP-189
D2
Elmax

Tolerate:
154CM/ATS-34
Cold Steel's AUS-8
1095
Sandvik 14C28N
VG-10
440C
CPM-S35VN

Will never own again:
CPM-S30V!!!!
8Cr13MoV
AUS-4 and 6


Looking forward someday to trying M390, CTS-204p and other higher end Carpenter steel, CPM S90V, S110V, 3V
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Wall of text warning. TL;DR version: "It matters, but it's less important than almost everything else."
In terms of importance, the first and foremost consideration is the fundamental design concept, followed by general material selection (cutlery grade steel--nothing specific besides that yet), followed by proper heat treatment and manufacturing execution, followed by specific steel type. However, for the specific steel type to really shine, the blade geometry must be optimized to showcase the steel or else perceptible differences are likely to be extremely minimal. For any given user and task(s) there is a set of optimal ranges for various characteristics ordered by priority. Matching materials/methods to these parameters is delicate work, and there are many ways to get there depending on what materials and methods you're actually using. Altering the material alone will cause a certain amount of change in how well the tool meets those requirements, but even more influential is changing the way in which those materials are applied.

One of the largest challenges in design is striking the correct balance between resilience and efficiency. These two characteristics are opposites, so the more efficient a design is, the less resilient it is, and vice versa. A 100% efficient design would be so pared down that the slightest deviation from proper use would break the tool, while a 100% resilient tool would completely fail to accomplish the task asked of it, but would be impossible to destroy. So one of the big questions you need to ask of a design is how resilient do you really need it? Because if the "built-in insurance factor" for use outside its intended range is well in excess of what you realistically need, it means that the actual performance of the tool is suffering as a result. If you take a knife made of a brittle steel and design the geometry around that, then swap the steel out for something very tough, you can make the blade thinner without risking breakage. Leaving the geometry the same would push the resiliency above and beyond the realistic needs of the user in that circumstance, because the geometry was already idealized for the needs of the user if using a more brittle steel. Many manufacturers offer the same knife in different steel options, but NONE to the best of my knowledge actually offer different geometry when that swap is made.
Click to expand...

Excellent post Ben, that says very much what I was trying to say :).

At one end of the Efficiency/resiliency spectrum we have things like extremely high end kitchen knives (sharpened to 4-5 degrees per side) that chip or are deformed while cutting anything much tougher than broccoli. At the other end of the spectrum you have essentially a prybar. It won't cut anything, but you also will have a hard time breaking it.

And clearly many of the larger "camp" style outdoor knives (ESEE, Becker, Busse, etc) all have large amounts of "resiliency buffer" built in to allow them to stand up to what would amount to "abuse" of many other knives, at the expense of cutting efficiency (which is why I don't use my BK9 to cut onions :p).

And I agree, most of the time when I see a knife sold with different steels, they geometry and grinds are exactly the same, which really won't help highlight the differences. What Bark River Knives is doing with their Bravo LT though does appear to be different (it at least is out of thinner blade stock, and as a fully convex knife it should change the final edge angle as well), and it is a trend that I would love to see continue.

And my dream of a 1/8in thick FFG CPM-3V Becker BK16 continues...
 
I'm a sucker for the steels. I personally will never use a folding knife for anything more abrasive than cardboard but its a relieving fact that I have a premium steel that won't dull quick! I was looking at the southern grind line of knives love the style but couldn't pull the trigger being it was 14c28n and not s30v or +.
 
ocnLogan said:
Excellent post Ben, that says very much what I was trying to say :).

At one end of the Efficiency/resiliency spectrum we have things like extremely high end kitchen knives (sharpened to 4-5 degrees per side) that chip or are deformed while cutting anything much tougher than broccoli. At the other end of the spectrum you have essentially a prybar. It won't cut anything, but you also will have a hard time breaking it.

And clearly many of the larger "camp" style outdoor knives (ESEE, Becker, Busse, etc) all have large amounts of "resiliency buffer" built in to allow them to stand up to what would amount to "abuse" of many other knives, at the expense of cutting efficiency (which is why I don't use my BK9 to cut onions :p).

And I agree, most of the time when I see a knife sold with different steels, they geometry and grinds are exactly the same, which really won't help highlight the differences. What Bark River Knives is doing with their Bravo LT though does appear to be different (it at least is out of thinner blade stock, and as a fully convex knife it should change the final edge angle as well), and it is a trend that I would love to see continue.

And my dream of a 1/8in thick FFG CPM-3V Becker BK16 continues...
Click to expand...

Yep, Bark River is the only one I know of doing this.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top