Blade steels... Are we suckers?

awooga142 said:
I was looking at the southern grind line of knives love the style but couldn't pull the trigger being it was 14c28n and not s30v or +.
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Ironically enough... The Southern Grind Bad Monkey is the knife that inspired me to start this thread! I got it today and it is much much nicer than I expected it to be. The fit and finish is superb. The knife is comfortable in hand, smooth as butter, and sharp! Its blade is a satin drop point, about 1/8 inch thick, 4 inches long, with a flat sabre grind. What I did not expect was that the actual edge is convex ground and mirror polished. It zips through paper and I used it at work today to cut a bunch of heavy plastic straps. With no loss of the shave capability. It is so nicely designed and constructed that as long as the steel provides reasonable service I will not regret this buy at all. It seems to be the total package. After I have some carry time in, I will report back on the steel.

Here are two comparison photos of my new EDC...

As you can see it is quite large, but it is light and thin so it carries very well.


 
Riz2530 said:
Ironically enough... The Southern Grind Bad Monkey is the knife that inspired me to start this thread! I got it today and it is much much nicer than I expected it to be. The fit and finish is superb. The knife is comfortable in hand, smooth as butter, and sharp! Its blade is a satin drop point, about 1/8 inch thick, 4 inches long, with a flat sabre grind. What I did not expect was that the actual edge is convex ground and mirror polished. It zips through paper and I used it at work today to cut a bunch of heavy plastic straps. With no loss of the shave capability. It is so nicely designed and constructed that as long as the steel provides reasonable service I will not regret this buy at all. It seems to be the total package. After I have some carry time in, I will report back on the steel.

Here are two comparison photos of my new EDC...

As you can see it is quite large, but it is light and thin so it carries very well.


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I thought it was! Haha yup maybe if I can sell some knives and I find one for a good price I'll snatch it up! Please do let us know how it holds up!
 
I'd like to see a blind use test with multiple, identical blades, but in different materials used in normal day to day usage, and see if anyone can tell the difference.

And, besides the few publicized controversies of certain manufacturers that mismarked blades, representing them as another type of steel, i wonder just how common a practice it is, consdidering the marketing hype behind these "Super steels".

It all started when Benchmade began advertising their use of ATS34. Before, no one cared.

As for the Bad Monkey, the overall design and quality outweighs any perceived shortcomings of the blade material.
 
I believe the Spyderco Mule Teams were designed with your double blind test in mind.
 
dano said:
It all started when Benchmade began advertising their use of ATS34. Before, no one cared.
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Not true.
Even back in the 1980's, we wanted 440 steel rather than mystery steel or known lesser quality steels.

A known steel is a beautiful thing; it lets the end user determine ahead of time what gear will best suit their needs. :)
 
dano said:
I'd like to see a blind use test with multiple, identical blades, but in different materials used in normal day to day usage, and see if anyone can tell the difference.

And, besides the few publicized controversies of certain manufacturers that mismarked blades, representing them as another type of steel, i wonder just how common a practice it is, consdidering the marketing hype behind these "Super steels".

It all started when Benchmade began advertising their use of ATS34. Before, no one cared.

As for the Bad Monkey, the overall design and quality outweighs any perceived shortcomings of the blade material.
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Normal day to day usage would be pretty hard to pin down. For some folks it would be cleaning fingernails and opening mail. For other people, it's doing things that would be considered borderline abuse.
Just out of curiosity, do you consider Ankersons edge retention thread "marketing hype"?
 
Bob W said:
People aren't suckers because they have a preference, or because they want a 'better' product.

But look the prices for steel stock, and figure how much steel is in a typical knife. Probably not more than $2 or $3 dollars difference in most cases between 440C and modern "SuperSteels." Then look at the huge price differences between knives made with those respective steels. Does that make people who pay those markups suckers? I'm not saying. ;)
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To be fair, its not just raw material cost. Blades have to be ground, parts milled etc. All that takes longer and uses more belts etc when you use more wear resistant steel, making the end product more expensive
 
If I had an excess of funds to buy whatever I wanted with, I absolutely would buy high end steel, all other factors being equal. But I do not. I have to find the best bang for my limited bucks. I find Cold Steel, ESEE, Mora knives to be perfectly functional for my outdoor needs/uses. I almost bit on Cold Steels Warcraft Tanto because the steel, and much less the design, was very appealing. Otherwise I am just an ordinary Joe that gets useful work/pleasure out of AUS8, 1095 etc. If a blade is within reasonable financial reach and has distinctly upgraded steel, I'd likely go for it. But the design is just as important to me as the steel. I lean toward working man utilitarian.
 
Yes I'm a sucker for blade steel. Lol, I think Sal Glesser has some of the blame here too. ;) :D
 
Why wouldn't you want a longer lasting edge? Sharpening=doing the dishes/cleaning the house, who likes house work?

not2sharp said:
I can understand seeking out good steel from a reputable maker who can properly shape and heat-treat it to work; but, I don't understand the quest for a longer lasting edge. Unless, you happen to work on the line in a slaughter house, of what possible use is a longer lasting edge? What is wrong with just touching up the edge as needed when you work with it; it has been done that way for centuries and it doesn't require much time or special tools or skills.

n2s
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Akcir said:
Normal day to day usage would be pretty hard to pin down. For some folks it would be cleaning fingernails and opening mail. For other people, it's doing things that would be considered borderline abuse.
Just out of curiosity, do you consider Ankersons edge retention thread "marketing hype"?
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Extremely valuable if all you're concerned with is light cutting of soft, somewhat abrasive material in a very controlled, calculated manner. If you're doing anything else, other tests and/ or steels may be more valuable. I don't believe those tests are marketing hype at all. I do believe those tests are very, very narrow in scope, as most repeatable tests have to be. The top steels on the list may or may not fit your edc uses. Most people do not use a knife to only cut rope or cardboard or fish with very controlled draw cuts, so the actual information in those tests are limited. It kind of boggles my mind that those tests are looked at by so many as the be all, end all for what makes a good blade.

Having said that, I don't have the money to buy supplies, measuring devices, and the many knives in different steels and configurarions to perform repeatable tests in other categories myself. That in itself reflects how difficult it is to do these tests and deserves respect even if they're extremely limited in nature.

And having said that, too, I still reference his results with interest. I do recognize the limits in which those results are constrained though.
 
Lycosa said:
Sal is a genius... on many levels.
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Ditto - Sal Glesser, founder of Spyderco, is a true knife wizard that understands the industry. I'll toss Chris Reeve into the category as well.

I have never had a poorly made or functioning Spydie.











 
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C_Becker said:
To be fair, its not just raw material cost. Blades have to be ground, parts milled etc. All that takes longer and uses more belts etc when you use more wear resistant steel, making the end product more expensive
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Yup. The increase in cost is not so much because of the raw material cost, but the additional cost of turning that material into a finished product!

chickenfried said:
Why wouldn't you want a longer lasting edge? Sharpening=doing the dishes/cleaning the house, who likes house work?
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Longer lasting edges are always desirable. However, this usually comes at the cost of increased wear resistance when sharpening, which is not always desirable. Some kinds of work predispose a knife towards damage that will occur on ANY steel, and ease of sharpening often trumps increased edge retention in those cases. Hit a rock with S30V or 1095 and both will need the edge repaired. Which one will be faster to get back in action? Just one of many examples. Edge retention is only one of many considerations in ideal material selection. ;)
 
bodog said:
Extremely valuable if all you're concerned with is light cutting of soft, somewhat abrasive material in a very controlled, calculated manner. If you're doing anything else, other tests and/ or steels may be more valuable. I don't believe those tests are marketing hype at all. I do believe those tests are very, very narrow in scope, as most repeatable tests have to be. The top steels on the list may or may not fit your edc uses. Most people do not use a knife to only cut rope or cardboard or fish with very controlled draw cuts, so the actual information in those tests are limited. It kind of boggles my mind that those tests are looked at by so many as the be all, end all for what makes a good blad
Having said that, I don't have the money to buy supplies, measuring devices, and the many knives in different steels and configurarions to perform repeatable tests in other categories myself. That in itself reflects how difficult it is to do these tests and deserves respect even if they're extremely limited in nature.

And having said that, too, I still reference his results with interest. I do recognize the limits in which those results are constrained though.
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You are right on the money. The first part of my post pretty much states that people require different things from their carry knives. As for the info on edge retention, it is just one of many pieces of information that I like to use in making a tool choice. That compiled information helps me choose a knife that will spend more time on the job, and less time on the stone.
 
Akcir said:
You are right on the money. The first part of my post pretty much states that people require different things from their carry knives. As for the info on edge retention, it is just one of many pieces of information that I like to use in making a tool choice. That compiled information helps me choose a knife that will spend more time on the job, and less time on the stone.
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Taking into count that I don't cut until dull, stopping at 20 LBS of down force most of the knives still had usable edges on them and that's highlighted in the extended full reviews that I do it's a good guide.

However I have cut until dull with some of the steels at the bottom and it doesn't take long for them to go completely dead as in not cutting at all trying to saw through the rope, well under 300 cuts to completely butter knife dull on 5/8" rope. Once the edge loses bite it's pretty much over at that point and it will stop cutting the rope and not much else either such as paper etc.
 
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Yeah, pretty much. The high vanadium steels last longer than 154 cm but it isn't really justifiable, and 154cm/VG10 last longer than 8cr13mov on cardboard, but what's really the meaning of that? I carry a Griptilian instead of some 10 dollar Kershaw mainly because of the axis-lock and the harder-run HT, though the 154cm is nice.

The guy who pays 1000 for a Tilt Vanax 75 should have 'douchebag' tattooed to the back of his head.
 
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