Bladeforums and China: Broaden your perspectives, reconsider your prejudices.

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Many people in this thread need to realize that their opinion is not fact nor the only opinion one can have on this subject, and that there are others out there who not only hold different beliefs but also have their own reasons for the opinions they've formed. If all you do in this thread is try and convince others that your opinion is THE opinion to hold, you'll only serve to get frustrated and look silly: Sharing your opinion is fine, using it the trod over the opinions of others is not fine.

It's fine to hold a strong opinion about something and even to share it in threads like these, it's not fine to try and silence or shame others who do the same because their opinion is different from yours. Be civil, or be quiet.
 
I speak as someone who is head of Business Development for DHD Metal Fabrications, Dallas NC. Company can make anything out of metal. PERIOD. CNC machines, Laser cuts, Cad design, the options are endless. Every ATM machine made is from parts engineered at our plant. We use Ats-34, 1090, S30v, etc daily. We could laser cut a thousand knife blades in less than 20 mins. So If in fact you have a design, contact us. PROBLEM is $$, not labor. Machines cost millions and thus must produce products that turn CASH. Next is Union involvement at a Machinist level. With technology being what it is today and program designers doing most of the work, Machinist are simply not necessary, and certainly not at a Union Scale, which inflates cost and restricts development. We mfg. parts everyday that far outreach skill levels necessary to produce knives. That is why Chris Reeves, smiles every time a knife is sold. Tolerances are so exact and material so controlled, duplicating a product is easy. GOD bless the true talents of this world, the custom makers or the small shops. But CRK has proven that design, computer technology and proper machines = super products. We would welcome any product into our shop and could, without question produce a flawless product. However, our cost is higher and only the American buyer can support that option. Remember Japan and Germany have made the best knives produced, including the best Spydercos, for years. Global knife making is hundreds of years old. Anyone say, Seki City ??





I definitely have to chime in on this thread.

The reason we try to encourage people to buy knives made in the USA is because we want to encourage more knife manufacturing right here. Right now I know of several companies with awesome folder designs and they can not find a place in the USA to manufacture them. I have talked to several people who are well known in the industry and they say the problem is there are not enough people qualified to work the equipment and make the knives to the quality needed. The more people willing to not care, the less money that stays here and the less likely the companies manufacturing knives are going to be willing to keep making them here. It also means less people are going to take the time to learn the craft because there are no jobs here for people who can make them. This has nothing to do with quality from different countries (although I personally think most USA Made Knives are better) but has to do with not letting an entire industry phase out of our country over the next few generations.

I personally do not blast anyone for their purchases and I never will. At the same time every little bit helps. I personally go out of my way to buy local, buy US Made and support my own Country as much as possible. I don't see why anyone should have a problem with that! I can only hope others will do the same!
 
Very interesting article! thank you for posting it! I must read it a few more times before i can decide to comment on it or decided to comment on this thread, however it creates some very interesting points! Again, thank you!

That article was a game changer for me. Even if one ultimately doesn't agree with the author's conclusions, it is indeed a thought provoking alternative to the conventional wisdom that one is frequently bombarded with. I thought it particularly pertinent to this discussion because of the idea of people equating everyone from a certain country as part of that particular national collective, rather than viewing them and dealing with them as individuals, a point well made in Comeuppance's original post. :thumbup:
 
Once other thing I'd like to point out...

It's also not the cost of labor that's dragging America down, but the poor management of business. Back in the 1950's (When US made stuff) the avg CEO earned 30% more then the avg worker on the floor. Now it's over 300%, yet they turn around and point fingers at the workers.

The other problem is American bosses don't reward "Hard work" like they do in other country's like china. One point of time in the US If you worked hard, the Boss would put up with fact he thought you were a jerk. Now to keep your job, you constantly have to brown nose, gossip about other workers etc, and the better you are at it the less work you have to do. The Boss will keep you around forever as long as you make them feel good.

(There's other issues too, but thought I keep this post shorter)
 
What many people do not realize, knives aside, the flood of "cheap" Chinese goods we purchase in our daily lives from clothing to electronics, appliances to house hold items are driven "cheap" by US companies. Chinese manufactures are making a mere 3% profit, a tiny fluctuation in the exchange rate often wipes out their profit resulting in bankrupcy.

It's the U.S. companies, driven with the goal of ever greater profit margins that is pushing cheap products on Americans and pocketing huge profits while doing so.

I have read many articles and watched quite a few investigative reporting on this issue. China can produce great quality products, but when U.S. companies order for example a $5 product but is only willing to pay $3 for it, the result is our current debacle. The false perception that China only produce cheap products and dump them on US soil.

This has been happening for a long time, now with the Chinese demanding higher wages, US companies are taking our orders to various third world countries to keep their high profit while pushing cost ever lower.
 
What many people do not realize, knives aside, the flood of "cheap" Chinese goods we purchase in our daily lives from clothing to electronics, appliances to house hold items are driven "cheap" by US companies. Chinese manufactures are making a mere 3% profit, a tiny fluctuation in the exchange rate often wipes out their profit resulting in bankrupcy.

It's the U.S. companies, driven with the goal of ever greater profit margins that is pushing cheap products on Americans and pocketing huge profits while doing so.

I have read many articles and watched quite a few investigative reporting on this issue. China can produce great quality products, but when U.S. companies order for example a $5 product but is only willing to pay $3 for it, the result is our current debacle. The false perception that China only produce cheap products and dump them on US soil.

That's something to think about; it certainly validates the whole "China makes and sells something for $X that has a value well above the asking price." Also brings up the sticky question about who is actually exploiting the other in the business relationship.

On the knives side of the question, the fact that all my knives are Chinese (or Chinese made, with regards to S&W knives) should be a clear indicator of where I stand on this topic.
 
I don't get the idea that buying American keeps people off welfare. Buying American for the sake of buying American is welfare. I can understand the dedication, but excluding foreign competitive products turns your consumption into a welfare project. And I think ultimately, that is a questionable practice that backfires by supporting businesses that would be better served by facing competition.

I enjoy Chinese made knives as much as any others. The ones I really get a kick from owning are the ones I occasionally find at Chinatown or from China based vendors. Not the goofy skull and flame wonders meant to be sold to wide eyed boys here in the west. I'm talking about the ones meant to be sold in Chinese equivalent of dollar stores. These knives are just so interesting. Most of them would be regarded as very crude objects, completely flying under the radar of typical American knife nuts. They sometimes are made from very thin steel, with weird design flourishes that I can't tell if they're supposed to be functional or decorative. Because these knives seem to have zero aesthetic considerations. Sometimes no scales, sometimes painted, sometimes not even... looking to be stamped with roughly crafted, well worn dies. Corners are coarse. Rivets and screws purely functional. And most interestingly, they cut well. As crude as they are, the blade steel is practical. No nonsense, inexpensive, practically disposable pocket knives for people who need a pocket knife. Not for people who like to fondle knives. I just love how genuine and down to earth these knives are. These are basically penny knives for a society where penny knives actually make economic sense.
 
You know what, the OP poster is a member of Chinese Knife Appreciation Society and their avatar looks a LOT like a sebenza so I am done with all correspondence.
 
You know what, the OP poster is a member of Chinese Knife Appreciation Society and their avatar looks a LOT like a sebenza so I am done with all correspondence.

da hell you talkin' 'bout? His avatar is a person, not a knife.

Plus, judging OPs based on avatars is extremely petty, I don't understand why you'd post that except to start a flame war, which is exactly what this thread doesn't need.
 
da hell you talkin' 'bout? His avatar is a person, not a knife.

Plus, judging OPs based on avatars is extremely petty, I don't understand why you'd post that except to start a flame war, which is exactly what this thread doesn't need.

He's referring to the Chinese Knife Appreciation Group's avatar, which is that of an SRM 710's handle (the one that is quite infamous for using some design cues from the Sebenza).

Disclaimer: I'm a member of that group as well.
 
I speak as someone who is head of Business Development for DHD Metal Fabrications, Dallas NC. Company can make anything out of metal. PERIOD. CNC machines, Laser cuts, Cad design, the options are endless. Every ATM machine made is from parts engineered at our plant. We use Ats-34, 1090, S30v, etc daily. We could laser cut a thousand knife blades in less than 20 mins. So If in fact you have a design, contact us. PROBLEM is $$, not labor. Machines cost millions and thus must produce products that turn CASH. Next is Union involvement at a Machinist level. With technology being what it is today and program designers doing most of the work, Machinist are simply not necessary, and certainly not at a Union Scale, which inflates cost and restricts development. We mfg. parts everyday that far outreach skill levels necessary to produce knives. That is why Chris Reeves, smiles every time a knife is sold. Tolerances are so exact and material so controlled, duplicating a product is easy. GOD bless the true talents of this world, the custom makers or the small shops. But CRK has proven that design, computer technology and proper machines = super products. We would welcome any product into our shop and could, without question produce a flawless product. However, our cost is higher and only the American buyer can support that option. Remember Japan and Germany have made the best knives produced, including the best Spydercos, for years. Global knife making is hundreds of years old. Anyone say, Seki City ??

What union. Does your shop fall under if I may ask
 
I can't answer this thread in my own way since my answer would be political. It NOT allowed here.

Besides someone may come along and complain if I made it TOO LONG with specific facts and data brought up over MANY years. I could judge this over time and in my 65 years on this earth.

I do not want to get into some thing with a poster who may or may not have drunk the Kool Aid from specific news/financial/political sources online.

With that said, I buy my BUCK KNIVES that are Made in Idaho-USA.

I support American custom made knife makers that my husband buys from too. Quality-beautiful work!

I try to support American workers and our middle class which has been declining for a long time.

I have other thoughts but they are not allowed here. So I will be quiet there.

I do NOT really care about the Chinese worker or many other workers (Communist or not!) worldwide no matter where they HAIL FROM to be frank with you. So yeah, I support the American Worker who makes any product including KNIVES first.

I do not think that makes me 'prejudiced' because I want the AMERICAN WORKER and AMERICA'S work force to be able to succeed FIRST or for that American Worker to put a roof over his/her head, food in their belly, support their family with a good wage, bennies, etc. Throw in the safety and pollution factors too!

It is kind of funny and SAD how the posts talk about 'prejudice' as if someone who wants AMERICA TO SUCCEED or American Workers to prosper that somehow makes us prejudiced when they make GOOD USA KNIVES for KNIFE OWNERS or any other U.S. Made product for us to buy.

Amazing!

Just because some of us have SEEN what has happened with the American work force and specific products does not make us 'bad people'.

I care about the American worker first and foremost. I care that the American Worker makes a well made - quality product (Knife, etc.) with proper equipment. I care that he/she gets a good wage. I care about the safety for the worker. I care about the pollution issue. I care about many things.

There are some LOVELY KNIVES that I have seen online and a few in the stores from various companies. Some of them come from Italy, Germany, Norway, Finland, Sweden, and Japan.

I have bought 15 or so guns in my life. ALL of them were quality made, beautiful, NOT dirt cheap in price and made by well known American companies shy of one SWEET GLOCK pistol. That goes for my late husband and my Montana born/raised husband.

Me? I do not like outsourcing, tax breaks to ship American jobs overseas, paying an American worker to train someone else in some other country while he loses his own job stateside, and more Americans losing their jobs.

I guess that must NOT be Politically Correct in some modern, voo doo economics, rocket scientist, financial/political, IT TAKES A VILLAGE circles too. Oh well.

Buy the knives that you want to buy and I will buy my knives that I want to buy.

My husband owned and still owns VERY FEW foreign made knives even though he gifted and sold many of his knives over this last year.

Cate
 
PS:

Someone who says that machinists don't matter in this day and age or in the past - union or not... well... that does NOT add up from what I know about some people, past and present, who were/are in that FIELD of work.

You can throw in men/women who make prototypes for ALL KINDS of things and in many manufacturing jobs too. And no... I am not a machinist and I was never a machinist.

Your mileage may vary and I will end that there!

Cate
 
Wow. The tl;dr is strong with this thread. And I see the hash is being rehashed. And the rehash is being re-rehashed. :(
 
Please keep your comments civil. If you're just going to blast hate, keep it to yourself until you can use big-boy words and present an intellectually-sound argument that doesn't include broad sweeping generalizations or ad hominem.

I know this is a touchy subject for many people here, but there's no need to turn this into a pointless nationalist argument or start fights with people. We're a mature bunch. We carry sharp things and generally don't fantasize about stabbing people with them. Let's bask in our maturity and have a good, clean discussion.


- - -


It's inevitable. Every time someone mentions a Chinese-manufactured brand, regardless of the context, people begin make negative statements whether or not they are relevant to the conversation at hand.

The most common stated reasons for disliking Chinese-manufactured goods seem to stem from concerns about (1) quality, (2) intellectual property, or (3) economic competition / autonomy.

First, before I address those individually, I'd like to state something that seems to be ignored when discussing China: (0) China isn't one singular company.

China is an incredibly large country undergoing an almost unprecedented economic boom, with new businesses and factories opening daily. Just because you have an issue with "X" knife that came from a Chinese manufacturer doesn't justify eschewing "Y" or "Z" knives from other manufacturers, as they are separate and unrelated entities, the only shared characteristic being the country of origin. It's incredibly silly to generalize all knives made in China as if they are made in just a few factories. It is plainly not the case, given the broad spectrum of quality and materials being sold to US wholesalers and/or consumers.

(1) - Quality

This is related to (0), in reference to the manner in which the concern is usually brought up. Someone will chime in with a statement along the lines of "Chinese knives are crap", which is an insane statement to make given that there are many prominent and known examples of Chinese knife manufacturers that produce quality products** - some simultaneously producing them for US companies. More on that later, though.

** Reate, Rike, SanRenMu, Kizer, and Enlan are fairly prominent on these boards, some with their very own Subforums.

(2) - Intellectual Property

It strikes me as a gross oversimplification that borders on xenophobia to swear off all Chinese-manufactured knives just because some manufacturers in the country produce products that violate intellectual property. It's a true double-standard that exposes one's unjustified prejudices. How so? Consider US knifemakers: Will you never buy a U.S.-made knife because Microtech copied the 0777 with their Matrix design? What about Cold Steel copying the GI Tanto? Those are just a couple examples, but the point is made.

(3) - Economic Competition / Autonomy

(Unavoidably, there is a lot of crossover with (2) here.)

The perception of all Chinese goods being low-quality is actually largely a fault of our own desire for low-cost goods. US companies cannot afford to get the materials and pay the workers a living wage and still produce some goods at a price that consumers find acceptable. It is the US wholesalers that decide to pass on the inferior product to the consumer.

A perspective to consider:
If someone told you that they would pay you $5 to make something out of $1 worth of materials, you would take that job if you owned a manufacturing plant. That's just good business. If the client you sell to accepts the quality of the product, you're successfully filling the contract and that is all that matters from a business perspective. Your name isn't even on the product - someone else is just buying it from you and putting it in their own name.

"I'll just buy from US manufacturers, then! Support our own economy!"
There are a few problems with that sentiment:
- The US manufacturers are using many machines, parts, and materials that are sourced from China.
- Trade between nations is a major benefit to our economy, undeniably. We do not have the natural resources to produce everything we want at a price we would find acceptable.
- US manufacturers can still make crap products.


I don't want to downplay the issues that counterfeits and clones present. I'm not saying that nothing crappy comes from China. What I am trying to get across is that you should reconsider making broad generalizations about China as if the entire country is culpable for the shoddy goods that US manufacturers commissioned in the first place.

The counterfeits, while not commissioned, need a market to sustain the production. People are buying them. It's not a good thing, but, from their a business perspective, it's just a material good that can be produced for cheap without repercussions. However strongly you feel about intellectual property, it is not fair to lump all Chinese manufacturers together as if they all were mutually guilty.

Thank you for reading this and keeping your responses civil.

Some American companies can make lousy products stateside and this can happen overseas too.

I found your original post interesting.

I did not think that it was too long to read and I read the entire post as I did other posts here.

Cate
 
Over the last few decades products with "Made in China" stamped on them have gained a reputation as poorly made junk. Though this is obviously a generalization, it is one that exists for a reason and China has nobody to blame but themselves for this reputation. Obviously Chinese companies have the ability to make high quality products. As they actually do that then the perception will change...quickly. Just look at Taiwan made Spydercos. Didn't take folks long to come around on those did it?

I believe it is too much of a stretch to call this xenophobia or nationalism. It is just the desire to not waste one's money on junk. A good way to avoid that for these past several decades has been to not buy "quality" products that are made in China. There was a time not long ago when some of the American car makers were consistently putting some real duds out there. I viewed that junk with the same disdain that I did the junk coming out of China, and it did affect my overall opinion of American production and my willingness to buy their products. That is the free market consequence of selling poorly made merchandise. You can't just say "life's not fair" when you get the reputation you deserve. Happily I have seen some resurgence of quality in the "made in USA" products.
 
I can't answer this thread in my own way since my answer would be political. It NOT allowed here.

Besides someone may come along and complain if I made it TOO LONG with specific facts and data brought up over MANY years. I could judge this over time and in my 65 years on this earth.

I do not want to get into some thing with a poster who may or may not have drunk the Kool Aid from specific news/financial/political sources online.

With that said, I buy my BUCK KNIVES that are Made in Idaho-USA.

I support American custom made knife makers that my husband buys from too. Quality-beautiful work!

I try to support American workers and our middle class which has been declining for a long time.

I have other thoughts but they are not allowed here. So I will be quiet there.

I do NOT really care about the Chinese worker or many other workers (Communist or not!) worldwide no matter where they HAIL FROM to be frank with you. So yeah, I support the American Worker who makes any product including KNIVES first.

I do not think that makes me 'prejudiced' because I want the AMERICAN WORKER and AMERICA'S work force to be able to succeed FIRST or for that American Worker to put a roof over his/her head, food in their belly, support their family with a good wage, bennies, etc. Throw in the safety and pollution factors too!

It is kind of funny and SAD how the posts talk about 'prejudice' as if someone who wants AMERICA TO SUCCEED or American Workers to prosper that somehow makes us prejudiced when they make GOOD USA KNIVES for KNIFE OWNERS or any other U.S. Made product for us to buy.

Amazing!

Just because some of us have SEEN what has happened with the American work force and specific products does not make us 'bad people'.

I care about the American worker first and foremost. I care that the American Worker makes a well made - quality product (Knife, etc.) with proper equipment. I care that he/she gets a good wage. I care about the safety for the worker. I care about the pollution issue. I care about many things.

There are some LOVELY KNIVES that I have seen online and a few in the stores from various companies. Some of them come from Italy, Germany, Norway, Finland, Sweden, and Japan.

I have bought 15 or so guns in my life. ALL of them were quality made, beautiful, NOT dirt cheap in price and made by well known American companies shy of one SWEET GLOCK pistol. That goes for my late husband and my Montana born/raised husband.

Me? I do not like outsourcing, tax breaks to ship American jobs overseas, paying an American worker to train someone else in some other country while he loses his own job stateside, and more Americans losing their jobs.

I guess that must NOT be Politically Correct in some modern, voo doo economics, rocket scientist, financial/political, IT TAKES A VILLAGE circles too. Oh well.

Buy the knives that you want to buy and I will buy my knives that I want to buy.

My husband owned and still owns VERY FEW foreign made knives even though he gifted and sold many of his knives over this last year.

Cate

I like you.

For every Chinese knife bought, an American job is on the verge of being eliminated. This pertains to more than knives, I buy and wear Carhartt pants and Wigwam socks because they are U.S. Made. I drive a Ford, I buy U.S. made lumber for building, U.S. made tools...This all supports the ONLY Country on this planet I give a crap about...The only time I will support any other Nation is if it is impossible to get a U.S. equivalent. There are even entire businesses geared toward USA made, are they prejiduced too or just catering to people who still care about their homeland? Buy your foreign stuff and I will continue to do my absolute best to preserve the Red, White, and Blue.

Like I said earlier I am more extreme than just U.S. Made, I will buy in State or Local if possible and keep my money as close to home as I can.

Best of luck to you all, Many soldiers have fought and died to keep America alive, and some of you are seriously spitting on their graves and dishonoring them and what they died for by purchasing from the very same countries that have killed them, just to save a few bucks.

If this is too political for this thread I do apologize however I am not sorry one bit for the way I feel, nor do I care if anyone thinks I am a nationalist/prejiduced/or whatever.

Nothing good can come from building an enemy nations economy, still don't think they are enemies, just wait till they come to collect their share we owe for our national debt. We wouldn't really be in this situation if American manufacturing of quality goods hadn't fallen to Foreign sweat shops and using cheap labor while cutting corners...Remember when Nike shoes used to be quality, or when CRKT knives was quality, even Schrade and Camillus, Gerber is a huge example of fallen glory.

Your money, your choices, you and your children, and future generations all have to live with the result of choices you make now....I teach my kids American pride...

Sorry for the long post, but I believe all has been said that I need to say...May this thread quickly die out before people start getting really heated and results in idiocy.
 
I am a bit surprised at the success of the high end knives that are made in China. Obviously they're are some desireable knives being made there, but I'd rather spend my money on a knife made in America,Germany,Japan or Scandinavia.
I'm much more familiar with the quality of knives made in those countries. I've just seen too many inferior products made in China to be comfortable buying a knife made there.
 
There have been a lot of China threads of late and I'm seeing these threads as a positive thing in one regard, budget knives from China are not being dismissed out of hand anymore. Knives from China can be a deal not that available elsewhere these days, a very inexpensive while reasonably decent user knife.

As far as the politics and the economics, which really are the same thing, it's obviously not fair. China is an evil empire if you like, but... they are a just a symptom of a bigger problem. You can't have a fair global economy when the standard/cost of living is so disparate worldwide. There are ads in AARP magazine urging people to retire in Mexico since a small fixed income in American dollars can get them so much more there. Mexican workers come to America and work what to us are low paying jobs for 10 years and go back to Mexico and live very well. (It's not an "immigration problem", it's an illegal worker problem.) China is just one example, albeit the poster child at this point. I've long since given up on boycotts and such. As a blue collar worker I've paid the price for a "global economy" for years. I'll vote my vote, for what that's worth, and I'll live my life the best I can. The one percent are going to milk this standard of living disparity as long as they can.

I once saw a show where a computer programmer was bemoaning his job being outsourced. He said, "I could understand if I was a steelworker, but I'm a programmer!" He just didn't get it. It will happen to you as well if it is at all possible. Think about that. You may be fine now, but are you actually not expendable to the real elite.

Anyway

I see these Chinese threads as a place to discuss Chinese knives and disseminate information. Word of mouth info like that is the thing BladeForums is most useful for. Threads like this would be of great use discussing Chinese knives as opposed to discussing China, the good and the bad about Chinese knives.


Like this...

One issue I have with Chinese knives is the common misrepresentation of materials. Still, so many people have bought the Sanrenmu 710 that we know through word of mouth that it is a decent steel and a well made knife for the cost.

I just placed an order for a Sanrenmu 7010LUC-SA (flame pattern). This knife now claims to be 12C27 now instead of 8cr13mov. I think 12C27 is a superior steel. Does anyone have any experience/opinions on the newer Sanrenmu "12C27" offerings? I've found the steel on the 710's which has been represented as 8cr13mov to be decent, not great but good enough. I like it better than Rough Rider steel.

If I find the steel noticably better, I'll let you know.

At this point I personally would not buy a higher priced Chinese knife due to the problem of materials misrepresentation. If I'm buying in that price range the steel being what it professes to be matters to me. It matters to me and it might not matter to others. There seem to be many people quite satisfied by the better Chinese offerings, so this is just my personal taste... De gustibus non est disputandum.

Another thing I've found is that Chinese knives often are too small, not made for our western meathooks and not comfortable in the hand. So Look at the specs if you order and be careful of that.

YMMV
IMO
De gustibus non est disputandum

cya
 
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