Bladeforums and China: Broaden your perspectives, reconsider your prejudices.

[davek14]

Heck, a vast majority of our CNC machinery is manufactured in China already,

Say wut?

 

[ohen cepel]

For me a knife I carry is a rather personal thing, bit a point of pride. I think it says something especially if I hand it to someone else to use. As a career military person if/when I do hand my knife to someone or someone asks about it I have a strong preference for it to be US made.

Not hating on the Chinese or anyone else (well islamofascists but they don't make anything), I simply prefer my knife to be US made. In general, I buy anything US made I can from Diamond Gusset jeans to Danner footwear. Personal preference for many reasons.

I do think the Chinese can make quality stuff (all the apple stuff seems pretty good) so long as the importer expresses that standard to them and pays them for that level of quality. Same in the US, you can get a $1 McD burger or a $4 burger at 5 guys; you get what you pay for in most cases.

 

[Mannlicher]

Comeuppance

Please keep your comments civil. If you're just going to blast hate, keep it to yourself until you can use big-boy words and present an intellectually-sound argument that doesn't include broad sweeping generalizations or ad hominem.

damn if THAT is not a wee bit uncivil, hateful, and hardly intellectually sound. Kinda of a broad sweeping generalization........... just saying

 

[Shorttime]

I admit, I did not read all five pages. So this may have been brought up.

I think it would be interesting, and possibly instructive, to be able to track each knife or component to the factory it was made in.

The implication being that we would all VERY quickly learn where the good ones are being made.

 

[pinnah]

I think it would be interesting, and possibly instructive, to be able to track each knife or component to the factory it was made in.

The implication being that we would all VERY quickly learn where the good ones are being made.

I think it would be interesting, and definitely instructive, to be able to track where all articles of clothing of people posting to this thread were made in.

The implication being that we would all VERY quickly learn who the purists are.


My sense is that where stuff is being produced is decided very high above the level of simple consumer preference. This the chaff on the floor of global economic policy that's being fought over by multi-national corporations and their private investors (gaining power) and nation states (loosing power). Workers and consumers are just cogs.

Strip down and check the tag on your skivies. This emperor has no clothes. At least not made in the USA.

 

[herisson]

Some interesting things caught my attention here.

[Their economy is almost entirely based on exported goods.]

Comeuppance you're entirely wrong on this. China has actually a huge inner market that is barely exploited today. But they are more and more interested in it, instead of exporting. Their potential of growth is tremendous without any need for export.

[American corporations are already looking at moving out of China for some of the reasons you mentioned.
It's just getting too expensive to produce there.....
They are now looking at some area's of Africa for labor pools.
I am sure it's because they want to raise the "quality of life" in those countries as well....]

JR88 I'm as skeptical as you are about this. But building a partnership with an industry in a foreign country is a wholly different game. A.G. Russell, Spyderco, Böker, Puma come to my mind as examples. I believe they pulled up the level of quality while sustaining their business.

[Only the extremely rich benefit from 'globalization' of the economy.]

Revolverrodger My opinion, too. And I'm no economist, I'm just reading some news. It's fairly well explained, though, by J. Stiglitz.

And, ahem, to talk knives eventually, I will buy a chinese knife when I see an original one. I mean a traditional chinese knife, not an in house designed flipper mimicking thousands of already existing flippers which I'm not interested in anyways. There is a traditional chinese cutlery and this does interest me. Like I'm interested in Malaysian, Nepalese, Italian or Finnish traditional designs.

 

[Mossyhorn]

This is getting very political and is straying from a conversation about knives. Who would have thunk it?

 

[Mossyhorn]

I was talking to a salesman at York Barbell about their products. Most are now made in Canada, he mentioned that the Chinese had an obligation to give back the barbell molds that they had. They never did.

 

[DPC]

I think it is about close mindedness.

I'm not american but I do see a lot of americans that only buy "made in USA" stuff. I can perfectly understand that, but where I live almost everything is made somewhere else.

As a collector I can appreciate any fine blade regardless of where it is made. Here there's a pretty good knife manufacturing culture, which I can appreciate, but that doesnt mean I hold the knives made in my country in a higher regard just because of that.

The brands I like the most (that I have) are probably Chris Reeve and Fallkniven. One is as american ("USAn") as apple pie while the other one is a Swedish brand that sells knives made in Japan.

I for one welcome the development of Chinese knife culture. We as "westerners" tend to think of China as a manufacturer of cheap crap, and that is often the case, bur in fact they're just a manufacturer of stuff, both excellent and terrible.

I dont have any chinese knife yet but even here on the forums I have seen some great quality knife designs, both fixed and folding.

Maybe it's because I am not patriotic at all, but I couldnt care less if a knife was made in USA, Czech Republic or Filipines as long as it is good quality, aside from the historical connotations, of course.

 

[Shorttime]

This is getting very political and is straying from a conversation about knives. Who would have thunk it?

I'll take the blame for that. I guess I went "meta", without explaining the train of thought involved.

The knife itself, or even the materials, methods, and location of manufacture, has no intrinsic moral weight.

All of these things are carried with the knife, somehow, so that we perceive more than a cutlery tool: we see the people who made it, the materials it was made from, and whether or not it's "too similar" to an existing design.

The thought process that I left out was "how do we allow these moral and ethical concerns to drive the knife market?" A partial answer seems to be to mark every part with a permanent stamp of origin.

I'm going to shut my mouth now, too. Lots of other people with more considered opinions than me.

 

[davek14]

My sense is that where stuff is being produced is decided very high above the level of simple consumer preference. This the chaff on the floor of global economic policy that's being fought over by multi-national corporations and their private investors (gaining power) and nation states (loosing power). Workers and consumers are just cogs.

Strip down and check the tag on your skivies. This emperor has no clothes. At least not made in the USA.

Curiouser and curiouser

 

[pinnah]

And, ahem, to talk knives eventually, I will buy a chinese knife when I see an original one. I mean a traditional chinese knife, not an in house designed flipper mimicking thousands of already existing flippers which I'm not interested in anyways. There is a traditional chinese cutlery and this does interest me. Like I'm interested in Malaysian, Nepalese, Italian or Finnish traditional designs.

This.


I want my Mora to be from Sweden, my Opinel to be from France, my SAK to be from Switzerland and my Case Sodbuster to be from the USA.

Interestingly, I don't care one iota where a modern flipper is made. It's a design of the world, imo. Utterly without any connection to any particular culture or tradition. Souless in this regard. Sort of like worrying about country of origin for bed linens at that point.

Knives I can't stand are things like Taylor Schrade, Buck imported slip joints and Rough Rider slip joints. These designs had roots in a culture and those designs were sent abroad and came back as cheap trinkets, disconnected from their tradition like the walking dead of the knife world.

I gave my bro-in-law a nice L'aguille for his birthday. That's a knife still connected to its roots.

 

[aquaman67]

I used to be all about Benchmade and made in the USA.

Then I tried a few of Spyderco's offshore offerings - and now it's not so much of an issue for me. I'll carry what I like - irregardless of country of origin.

 

[herisson]

It's very difficult to keep things national or authentic in a globalized industrial context. This is decades old, I remember us youngsters sneezing at "made in Hong Kong" and soon "made in Taiwan", later "made in Japan" stuff. Guess what, today "made in Japan" is an indication of highest quality (Seki, right ?) as is "made in Taiwan". I have little doubt China may go down the same path. The time needed is another question as they are under no pressure to do so.
We also had (and still have) crappy products produced in house. Sigh ! A famous singer even made a song named "Merde in France" (shit made in France) mocking the "Made in France" label at a time where home made crap was so widely available that everybody was out for the "Made in USA" label. Catching one of these products was a win at every level (think an authentic USMC Kabar !!!!!).
And while we are already "chinesezed" up to our eyebrows (desktop, laptop, Iphone,... anyone ?), I like to think my knife buys pertain to my personal inner garden where I can rule things to my liking and pleasure. And so I will do my best to keep things real, even if it's a bit on the side of wishful thinking...
And, while no evolution of the "knife market" will revert the globalized economy to better times, I totally respect the people who fight that state of things and sustain their national economy and local makers. I'm also not hip to the "If I can get the same thing at a lower price, I will get it". Same thing ? Really ? Consider all the aspects...most of the time it's not the same thing at all (just considering the warranty...). Anyway, it's not about the price, it's about getting the real thing. Now, if a Corsican knife was made in China with better quality, fit and finish (not that difficult), I would be trapped in my contradictions....

 

[James Y]

This.


I want my Mora to be from Sweden, my Opinel to be from France, my SAK to be from Switzerland and my Case Sodbuster to be from the USA.

Knives I can't stand are things like Taylor Schrade, Buck imported slip joints and Rough Rider slip joints. These designs had roots in a culture and those designs were sent abroad and came back as cheap trinkets, disconnected from their tradition like the walking dead of the knife world.

I gave my bro-in-law a nice L'aguille for his birthday. That's a knife still connected to its roots.

Would that apply to a Japanese-influenced design, like a katana or a tanto, made by an American maker or company?

I personally don't own any Chinese-made slipjoints, but as a kid I owned a few really crappy American-made slipjoints by Colonial, which I'm sure were worse than the Rough Riders are.

I own a Japanese-made 2-blade pattern based on American (or European?) slip joints, and it's one of the all-time best I own in terms of overall quality, fit/finish and performance. I know I've gone a bit off-topic, but the assumption often seems to be that it's perfectly fine when American or European makers appropriate traditional designs from other (non-Western) countries, but a violation when an American or European design is made in a Far Eastern country.

Jim

 

[AreBeeBee]

Well, I'm just going to mention the supposed (non)collectibility of Chinese knives. Let me ask you, have you priced what those junky toys from Japan go for when stamped "made in occupied Japan"? Or even after the Occupation ended? Or toys "made in U.S.-zone Germany"?

Or early postwar Japanese cameras?

Believe me, there will be a collectors market for junky Chinese knives. You may never participate in it, but others will. And who knows? The prices may not be tracked in dollars but in yuan. With the early-Japanese-cameras market, the highest prices today are paid in Japan. It seems they're repatriating their junk.

Go figure. But don't count out even crappy Chinese cutlery.

 

[Lee48]

...But I don't buy knives to do good. I buy them to cut stuff.

That is one of the most insightful statements I've heard in a long time.

Aside from all the concern for environmental factors, labor treatment, trade inequities, loss of domestic jobs, etc., the fact is we're all just trying to get by in this life. If someone wants and can afford to buy a $50 USA made knife that is fine and I support the decision. But if someone is trying to get by in life and finds a Chinese-made knife for $10 that can do the same job for them as the 5X more expensive USA product, I'm fine with that. And if someone who appreciates quality discovers Chinese-made cutlery is really quite good after all and decides it's worth purchasing, I'm also fine with that.

 

[Ken44]

You know what, the OP poster is a member of Chinese Knife Appreciation Society and their avatar looks a LOT like a sebenza so I am done with all correspondence.

I was Wondering why he started a thread like this a day after his China counterfeit(sebenza) thread was closed. Their(CKAS) knife does look a lot like a Sebenza, but I can't see all of it, so it may not be a clone ???

Bladeforums and China: Broaden your perspectives, reconsider your prejudices.

But the thread title is the main reason I won't give my opinion here.
I don't need anyone telling me to "broaden my perspectives", or to "reconsider my prejudices".

 

[Surfingringo]

But the thread title is the main reason I won't give my opinion here.
I don't need anyone telling me to "broaden my perspectives", or to "reconsider my prejudices".

That was a bit of an inauspicious start wasn't it?

 

[brancron]

My intent is not to convince people to start buying more Chinese-made knives, nor am I an economic expert.

But a lot of the people who critize Chinese-made everything the most vehemently on this forum like to pass themselves off as economic experts.