Bladeforums Supporting Clone Dealer

[mattmanyam]

You and a few others here are getting fairly aggressive when it comes to responding to opinions that don’t match your own. Calling someone a “clone apologist” isn’t proper given the argument that EngrSorenson has repeatedly laid out. You shouldn’t be trying to bully people into aligning with your opinions, no matter how strongly you feel about them.

I fully realize that folks like craytab and @Quiet are attempting to censor this thread through their complaints to moderators, but people should be allowed to disagree with them and others here... at least I HOPE they can, otherwise this thread is NOT a discussion but an attempt to rally some cheerleaders for ONE particular viewpoint.

So, are differing opinions permitted here or not? Because by the looks of it, you guys are really coming down hard on everyone that isn’t of the mindset to criticize Spark.

Man you just CAN NOT resist white knighting, so long as you get to try to live out your dream of "exacting your revenge"... Give it up, already.

The conversation in here has been quite good, for the most part, till you come slithering in.

 

[King of the Cheese]

Man you just CAN NOT resist white knighting, so long as you get to try to live out your dream of "exacting your revenge"... Give it up, already.

The conversation in here has been quite good, for the most part, till you come slithering in.

Stop trying to censor me and make this about anything else than the argument at hand. It’s not, and I’m not going to let you and others dig up irrelevant personal issues to try and distract from the topic simply because you don’t like to read opinions you don’t agree with.

Did you have anything related to the TOPIC to contribute here?

 

[000Robert]

@Spark , I hope you see what you’ve done. Clone apologists like EngrSorenson are running rampant with bad logic arguments. You’ve empowered them by your actions.

It’s not too late to save BF. I give you my word, I’ll cover the cost of a lost dealer membership.

You’re about to loose your members, dealers and manufacturers. This is a pivotal moment. Please make the right decision.

I agree, and I believe that some damage may be irreparable at this point for allowing this to go on as long as it has and not giving Topomart the boot asap.
I just found this thread a while ago and thought it was a joke at first until I started reading the posts. And I have read them all. It gave me a sick feeling. I didn't have any respect for forum owners anyway when I came here. I have seen forums break their own rules to ban me. Or they just fix it so that you can no longer log in. Most of them are ran by hypocrites. BF was a breathe of fresh air to me.
I just believe that the longer this continues the more the credibility of those running the forum will diminish, and so will the forum. I really hate to see it. And I still feel sick. I'm going to grab a soda to help with the shock...

 

[Cursum Perficio]

I give you my word, I’ll cover the cost of a lost dealer membership.

I can't see what you propose being accepted. But if it is, I'll throw in.

 

[King of the Cheese]

I agree, and I believe that some damage may be irreparable at this point for allowing this to go on as long as it has and not giving Topomart the boot asap.
I just found this thread a while ago and thought it was a joke at first until I started reading the posts. And I have read them all. It gave me a sick feeling. I didn't have any respect for forum owners anyway when I came here. I have seen forums break their own rules to ban me. Or they just fix it so that you can no longer log in. Most of them are ran by hypocrites. BF was a breathe of fresh air to me.
I just believe that the longer this continues the more the credibility of those running the forum will diminish, and so will the forum. I really hate to see it. And I still feel sick. I'm going to grab a soda to help with the shock...

I’m not a fan of Topomart, but I understand the logic behind Spark’s position. People like @Hackenslash keep trying to make this an argument about money and it’s a fallacy, and an insult to think someone can just throw money at the owner to make people they don’t like disappear. Furthermore, telling the forum owner you’ll “reimburse them” in order to get someone banned you don’t want around is a slippery slope. Who becomes judge, jury, and executioner? Spark? Or a gaggle of forum veterans? What next, someone rounding up a few members to tell Spark they’ll reimburse my membership costs so they can axe me?

I think this decision is crucial but not for the reasons many believe. Make the rules the standalone objective standard. Do NOT let mob rule dictate who stays or leaves.

If Topomart sells clones here? Ban them per the rules. If they don’t? Well, if they’re playing by the rules, what’s the issue?

The problem we have here is too many people want to dictate policy through rules interpretation, and when the hard decision is made, act like the sky is falling when they don’t get their way. I truly believe this problem will sort itself out on its own, WITHOUT the pearl clutching and hand wringing occurring here.

 

[Fixall]

@Spark I hope you will reconsider this. To me, it cheapens a dealer membership if a shop straight out of China with a large number of clones is on the same level of legitimacy on Bladeforums as DLT, BHQ, Knife center, etc.

Hear, hear.

 

[000Robert]

I’m not a fan of Topomart, but I understand the logic behind Spark’s position. People like @Hackenslash keep trying to make this an argument about money and it’s a fallacy, and an insult to think someone can just throw money at the owner to make people they don’t like disappear. Furthermore, telling the forum owner you’ll “reimburse them” in order to get someone banned you don’t want around is a slippery slope. Who becomes judge, jury, and executioner? Spark? Or a gaggle of forum veterans? What next, someone rounding up a few members to tell Spark they’ll reimburse my membership costs so they can axe me?

I think this decision is crucial but not for the reasons many believe. Make the rules the standalone objective standard. Do NOT let mob rule dictate who stays or leaves.

If Topomart sells clones here? Ban them per the rules. If they don’t? Well, if they’re playing by the rules, what’s the issue?

The problem we have here is too many people want to dictate policy through rules interpretation, and when the hard decision is made, act like the sky is falling when they don’t get their way. I truly believe this problem will sort itself out on its own, WITHOUT the pearl clutching and hand wringing occurring here.

I believe that many here feel hurt and betrayed by this. Betrayal is not likely to be forgiven by most people. Allowing TM to stay here will not help this forum - it will only hurt it.
And wealthy people don't take threats lightly. Don't antagonize them with 'if you don't like it then start your own'. Because they just might do it.

 

[King of the Cheese]

I believe that many here feel hurt and betrayed by this. Betrayal is not likely to be forgiven by most people. Allowing TM to stay here will not help this forum - it will only hurt it.
And wealthy people don't take threats lightly. Don't antagonize them with 'if you don't like it then start your own'. Because they just might do it.

My remark about “starting their own” is more a jab at those that want to tell the owner what to do but don’t understand the responsibilities and stress of the position. “Heavy is the head that wears the crown”.

I think people can disagree with the decision all they like.. but the hurling of insults and disrespect in trying to throw money at the owner to get what they want is a bigger issue to me than some clone dealer. I just viewed all Topomart’s threads and there isn’t any traction, no flocks of unknowing buyers running to Topomart with cash in hand. People here are making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Ajack60]

I’ll leave this right here. Someone please, please tell me I’m not seeing what I’m seeing here being advertised and then I’ll be open to hearing opinions about mob rule and dictating policy through interpretation.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/what’s-your-carry.1760342/

 

[000Robert]

My remark about “starting their own” is more a jab at those that want to tell the owner what to do but don’t understand the responsibilities and stress of the position. “Heavy is the head that wears the crown”.

I think people can disagree with the decision all they like.. but the hurling of insults and disrespect in trying to throw money at the owner to get what they want is a bigger issue to me than some clone dealer. I just viewed all Topomart’s threads and there isn’t any traction, no flocks of unknowing buyers running to Topomart with cash in hand. People here are making a mountain out of a molehill.

But that is the 'inch that starts the mile'. Once you let them in there's no stopping them. Where will it stop?
And I think that he was just saying that he would cover the dealer membership cost so BF wouldn't lose the money, and didn't mean any disrespect. But I could be wrong because I haven't been here very long.
I can see no upside to allowing TM to stay. All I can see is down...
But, it's not my call. Spark has the right to do as he wishes.

 

[Vetr]

There's wayy too much wrong with the way this website is handled and managed to be concerned about one clone dealer...there are lots of people on here selling fakes...just gotta know what you're looking at..and don't even start on money...i know lots of people who were banned here just so the mods and their buddies could make more money. Anybody should be able to state an opinion here without a moderator or anyone else stepping in, though. That I agree with.

 

[Fixall]

I’ll leave this right here. Someone please, please tell me I’m not seeing what I’m seeing here being advertised and then I’ll be open to hearing opinions about mob rule and dictating policy through interpretation.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/what’s-your-carry.1760342/

To me it looks like a BladeForums sanctioned knife distributor actively advertising clones on the site. Kind of like this other post from them actively advertising a CRK clone. Very disappointing.

 

[King of the Cheese]

There's wayy too much wrong with the way this website is handled and managed to be concerned about one clone dealer...there are lots of people on here selling fakes...just gotta know what you're looking at..and don't even start on money...i know lots of people who were banned here just so the mods and their buddies could make more money. Anybody should be able to state an opinion here without a moderator or anyone else stepping in, though. That I agree with.

To your first point about selling of fakes: I think you should report those posts in which fakes are being sold. That would help the forum.

As for mods and their buddies making money by banning people, I’m not sure I follow that one. How does a moderator make money by banning someone (unless what some are proposing here happens and people successfully get Topomart banned by throwing money at the owner)?

I appreciate your last point about opinions being permitted. Unfortunately there are many here that want this thread to be 100% an echo-chamber of pro-banning of Topomart / anti-Spark posts. That I cannot abide by. This thread should be open to all viewpoints, not just the mob consensus.

 

[000Robert]

There's wayy too much wrong with the way this website is handled and managed to be concerned about one clone dealer...there are lots of people on here selling fakes...just gotta know what you're looking at..and don't even start on money...i know lots of people who were banned here just so the mods and their buddies could make more money. Anybody should be able to state an opinion here without a moderator or anyone else stepping in, though. That I agree with.

If you let one clone dealer in, then you will have to let another, and another, and another, etc..
I agree that people should be able to say whatever they want as long as it isn't to vile or hateful. But I don't see how mod's and their buddies could actually make money by banning someone.

 

[herisson]

@Hackenslash Cursum Perficio I admire the dedication and will throw in, too. It would go along with what @r8shell said [Perhaps one reason to apply a strict legal interpretation to the rules would be in deciding to not ban topomart, since no law has been broken, but merely to remove and refund their Dealer level membership, because they don't meet the standard of a vendor that members of this community could in good conscience recommend. I doubt they would stay around and join the discussion community without it, but that would be their choice.] and the forum wouldn't lose a cent. Sadly, I think the issue is not the 350 $.

 

[Boru13]

Man you just CAN NOT resist white knighting, so long as you get to try to live out your dream of "exacting your revenge"... Give it up, already.

The conversation in here has been quite good, for the most part, till you come slithering in.

Banned from the thread for derailment/insults... always one too make a believer out of.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Once again you’re not wrong, but I think it’s easier for me personally to pull the trigger on something than to live with discomfort. I think the natural thing most people would do is pull the pin and react quickly.

Sparks doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy that gets coerced into a decision once his mind is made up, but that’s just an impression. Conversely, I think there’s a good chance this ... I keep forgetting their name... won’t be here in a year. I think a combination of them only being able to sell from a sketchy, at-risk website combined with a lack of BF sales would end it. Or possibly a BF infraction.

I saw we wait it out a couple months and see.

In a few months if we start this thread you're going to show up and ask us why we didn't make a fuss months ago when it happened. And, frankly, you would be right at that point, it would be old news, the stance of the staff and forum would have been established for months and would be entirely clear.

Why would we wait a few months and see? What, precisely, would we gain by making it clear where we stand months after the case? No one is proposing gathering pitchforks and storming BFC's servers, we're making our position on an unethical dealer clear to management. This is Spark's forum, the only powers we have here are voicing our opinions and deciding whether or not to support the forum monetarily.

I understand that it's uncomfortable to see something you like and support be criticized, but the "wait and see" rhetoric is purely a reaction to that which has no logic behind it. There's no reason to wait and a lot of reason not to.

Let me be clear, I do think a dealer like this, even if they fade rapidly into obscurity, changes Bladeforums irreparably, because it makes a huge change to the foundation of what I believed this place stood for. For many, like yourself, that may be such a miniscule change that it may be unnoticeable, or you may not ever have believed that BFC stood for the things I did, so you may be entirely unaffected. For me, the ethical shift seems sudden and drastic, though it's entirely possible I was simply wrong about BFC all along, and it puts me in a position where I'm uncomfortable monetarily supporting the forum.

 

[EngrSorenson]

I understand that it's uncomfortable to see something you like and support be criticized, but the "wait and see" rhetoric is purely a reaction to that which has no logic behind it. There's no reason to wait and a lot of reason not to.

I’m actually completely comfortable with folks criticizing blade forums- or in this case Sparks, and not so much the forum. (Unless you feel that Sparks is the forum, but again, still fine with it). I’m less comfortable with your use of words like “rhetoric” and “no logic”, but that’s up to you how you want to characterize my initial message.

just as a brief side note- what do you think degrades a forum faster, one unethical dealer or a host of unpleasant people?

I realize this is the internet, and folks can say whatever they want. It’s fine; I go to work and play “PJ Masks” with my toddler, regardless. I’d prefer to walk away from Blade Forums discussion enlightened and feeing better for having participated, wouldn’t you?

 

[King of the Cheese]

just as a brief side note- what do you think degrades a forum faster, one unethical dealer or a host of unpleasant people?

I totally agree with you, and that specific topic could lead to hundreds of pages of comments... and perhaps a topic separate from this one.
In this current topic we are forced to sort through the incendiary language as there are a lot of people here that already have pitchforks and torches out, marching up the road in the dark...and are treating Spark like he’s Dr. Frankenstein up in his castle.

Staying objective about it, we can get to the root of the issue and discuss the differing opinions I would hope.

 

[craytab]

Good morning all! Thanks for the good discussion on this important issue and thanks to Boru13 for helping to keep this thread on track.

I’ll leave this right here. Someone please, please tell me I’m not seeing what I’m seeing here being advertised and then I’ll be open to hearing opinions about mob rule and dictating policy through interpretation.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/what’s-your-carry.1760342/

And that thread is now gone, which is a good thing. That said, the fact that it is gone exemplifies the problem with topomart: they sell products that can't be advertised here, that are knives. Think about that. Should a bladeforums dealer need to be watched like a hawk so they don't try to sell the wares that they desperately want?

This sort of dealer lowers the bar for us as a community. They hurt other honest dealers that have earned and deserve respect and patronage. They hurt our most respected manufacturers and makers.