Bladeforums Supporting Clone Dealer

[Tigerfan]

I question the intent of the term illegal, particularly with regard to “clone”.

Can someone help me out on this? Preferably an Intellectual Property lawyer would be good, lol. Is a “clone” necessarily illegal because it’s identical to another knife?

Somewhat of a leading question because I’m pretty sure it’d have to violate a trademark or patent.

to that end I’m not sure if the details of these clones. Can someone (who actually knows) enlighten me?

I’d think, for instance, that the term “knockoff” is too vague. There’s not sufficient definition of what can be deemed a knockoff.

counterfeit is a meaningful term, because legally it means a product which is sold as if it was something else. Seems straightforward and very much illegal.

I think you are missing the point of this argument. This is not about what is legal or not. This is not a legal discussion. This is a matter of ethics, not law. Nobody I know here (except 1 or 2 folks who have no values and have already voiced their support....you know who you are) supports the dealer we are discussing. This is NOT a legal issue. It is an issue about the core values of this forum. Admitting Topomart is a severe breach of the values that most of us believe in. Are you proposing that the longstanding values of this site be changed? Have you conferred with the supporting manufacturers who pour tons of money into R&D as to their opinion about having their hard work cloned?

 

[EngrSorenson]

The issue here is that everything you are asking has been discussed in countless threads on this forum. Also, more obfuscation, we aren't talking about a company making a classic design that many companies made. We're talking about a Chinese company making clones of knives like the Benchmade Griptilian, and the Spyderco PM2, among many others. These are not general designs, like say, a Remington Trapper, a design that was made by many companies over the years. Only one company makes the PM2, another company makes a clear copy that they "changed", by adding Benchmade's proprietary (at the time) lock to it. Anyone using "Critical thinking" understands this, no law degree is actually required. It's why Spyderco has been fighting these cloners for years.

There are three IP protections:

1. Patent
2. Trademark
3. Copyright

As long as you can tell me one of those has been legitimately and known to be breached in each case of the clones, I’ll believe you that all these clones are strictly illegal.

is that so hard? I don’t know what all the attitude is about.

 

[Quiet]

There are three IP protections:

1. Patent
2. Trademark
3. Copyright

As long as you can tell me one of those has been legitimately and known to be breached in each case of the clones, I’ll believe you that all these clones are strictly illegal.

is that so hard? I don’t know what all the attitude is about.

This is clearly a waste of time, as you seem to have chosen to disregard the clear design theft. I'll not clutter the thread further with what is ultimately a pointless discussion. Your mind is clearly made up, and you're welcome to it. Have a good evening.

 

[Tigerfan]

There are three IP protections:

1. Patent
2. Trademark
3. Copyright

As long as you can tell me one of those has been legitimately and known to be breached in each case of the clones, I’ll believe you that all these clones are strictly illegal.

is that so hard? I don’t know what all the attitude is about.

See post above. I already anticipated you. This is NOT a legal discussion. This is a private forum. What is so difficult about promoting knife ethics??????????? PLEASE answer that one and stop with the legal crap which has nothing to do with this PRIVATE forum.

 

[EngrSorenson]

I think you are missing the point of this argument. This is not about what is legal or not. This is not a legal discussion. This is a matter of ethics, not law. Nobody I know here (except 1 or 2 folks who have no values and have already voiced their support....you know who you are) supports the dealer we are discussing. This is NOT a legal issue. It is an issue about the core values of this forum. Admitting Topomart is a severe breach of the values that most of us believe in. Are you proposing that the longstanding values of this site be changed? Have you conferred with the supporting manufacturers who pour tons of money into R&D as to their opinion about having their hard work cloned?

And that’s fine, thank you for clarifying that. You might want to tell Quiet that.

I won’t be buying any of these knives in question anyway, so I’m not really impacted.

my point was merely that if folks want to talk ethics, talk ethics. If folks want to try and trip Sparks up on the rules, they clearly were written in a way that does not clearly say what the concern is. If he mentions legal, then one could guess he’s concerned with legal issues, as such a sebenza look-alike with no IP protections broken is fair game.

that was merely my point, which got “obfuscated” because people didn’t understand I was being explicit.

 

[EngrSorenson]

You guys respond much faster than me- give a guy a break- I’m juggling 3 different people

 

[Quiet]

And that’s fine, thank you for clarifying that. You might want to tell Quiet that.

I won’t be buying any of these knives in question anyway, so I’m not really impacted.

my point was merely that if folks want to talk ethics, talk ethics. If folks want to try and trip Sparks up on the rules, they clearly were written in a way that does not clearly say what the concern is. If he mentions legal, then one could guess he’s concerned with legal issues, as such a sebenza look-alike with no IP protections broken is fair game.

that was merely my point, which got “obfuscated” because people didn’t understand I was being explicit.

Actually, the discussion remains a matter of both. I understood the point you were attempting to make quite clearly, which seems to be "I personally am not sure any theft actually occurred." This is factually incorrect. Certain Ganzo models feature the Spyderco Spyder Hole, which is Trademarked. Clear enough? Many Ganzo models featured the Benchmade AXIS lock, years before that patent had expired. Clear legal theft has taken place, and that's on top of the ethics of them making knives which are clear copies of known knife designs by companies like CRK, Spyderco, Benchmade, and Lionsteel. Also, if my tone seems brusque, A. I'm a jerk for the most part and B. this is ground that's been retread countless times, and I have to admit that you may not have been there for any of it, since a lot of it has been in GKD and I'm not sure if you visit that section much.

Edited: Clarity, and tone.

 

[Tigerfan]

Let me clarify what I said above when I said "this is not a legal issue". It very well may be, but what I was trying to say is that we are discussing the ethics of clonism and the fact that the promotion of clones was previously prohibited. Trying to apply high level legaleeze to the rules is nuts. They were written by knife nuts, not supreme court wannabes. I would hope that we all are in one mind in the desire to promote the highest ethics in this hobby. I would hope that we could all at least agree on that premise. Yes?

 

[Eli Chaps]

This thread is not a debate about legality. It's about ethical delineation and the greater good of the community. These are subjective topics and in my opinion, there's little point in trying to make them objective. You're either are okay with Topomart occupying the same space and sanctioned status as the other vendors on that list or you are not. I am not just talking about the short term issues, I believe it will have serious long term ramifications.

For me, there are things that just feel right and things that just feel wrong. I don't always have to dissect those things in minute detail. Those feelings can be different for others.

The emblem states, "BLADE FORUMS.COM The Leading Edge Of Knife Discussion." I hope we can all keep that in mind and recognize, that despite position, most of us are engaging in this particular discussion because we care.

 

[Danke42]

You’re a lawyer, I take it?

You guys are reading too much into this.

you don’t have to steal plans to make a copy. All you have to do is buy one, and take it apart- reverse engineering is pretty well established.

there’s nothing wrong with thinking about this deeper. How about the GEC most recent run of 23’s based on the old Remington trapper? Does that constitute a clone?

I’m just thinking critically, and damn anyone who can’t. If you can’t ask as simple question without some kind of condemnation, this clearly is a train wreck of a conversation.

Waiting on that 10K payment. Trust me it will be worth it.

 

[r8shell]

Let me clarify what I said above when I said "this is not a legal issue". It very well may be, but what I was trying to say is that we are discussing the ethics of clonism and the fact that the promotion of clones was previously prohibited. Trying to apply high level legaleeze to the rules is nuts. They were written by knife nuts, not supreme court wannabes. I would hope that we all are in one mind in the desire to promote the highest ethics in this hobby. I would hope that we could all at least agree on that premise. Yes?

Perhaps one reason to apply a strict legal interpretation to the rules would be in deciding to not ban topomart, since no law has been broken, but merely to remove and refund their Dealer level membership, because they don't meet the standard of a vendor that members of this community could in good conscience recommend. I doubt they would stay around and join the discussion community without it, but that would be their choice.

 

[Hackenslash]

@Spark , I hope you see what you’ve done. Clone apologists like EngrSorenson are running rampant with bad logic arguments. You’ve empowered them by your actions.

It’s not too late to save BF. I give you my word, I’ll cover the cost of a lost dealer membership.

You’re about to loose your members, dealers and manufacturers. This is a pivotal moment. Please make the right decision.

 

[not2sharp]

....

It’s not too late to save BF.....

That’s the big presumption. We have seen any number of dealers come and go, yet we are reluctant to address Topomart. To me it’s not a legal question, it’s a practical one. Do we continue to support the makers who have contributed so much to our forums or instead back a bottom dwelling junk maker from an enemy communist regime? It seems an easy choice; but I am not privy to the relationship and Topomart may be more than we can readily see. I suggest we exercise patience and wait to see how this resolves; there is no point in belaboring the issue. We all know what they are, but we as yet don’t know what it means.

n2s

 

[Insipid Moniker]

That’s the big presumption. We have seen any number of dealers come and go, yet we are reluctant to address Topomart. To me it’s not a legal question, it’s a practical one. Do we continue to support the makers who have contributed so much to our forums or instead back a bottom dwelling junk maker from an enemy communist regime? It seems an easy choice; but I am not privy to the relationship and Topomart may be more than we can readily see. I suggest we exercise patience and wait to see how this resolves; there is no point in belaboring the issue. We all know what they are, but we as yet don’t know what it means.

n2s

Topomart has been a Bladeforums dealer since November 3rd. The mods were notified shortly after they joined. Spark has posted twice in this thread. I understand that waiting and seeing is appealing because it risks nothing and demands nothing, but how long, realistically, would you ask us to wait? To be perfectly frank, I think Spark has made his stance clear. Given that, I cannot think of a more appropriate time than to discuss how we feel about that stance.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Clone apologists like EngrSorenson are running rampant with bad logic arguments. You’ve empowered them by your actions.

Hey, come on man. Not necessary, or true. I’m the worst apologist in history if that’s what your thinking. I’m trying to sort out what I consider to be a inconsistency in the forum rules.

I’m apparently not privy to much of a conversation that has taken place. Not here, but elsewhere.

I encourage everyone who reads what I write as someone trying to figure out a problem, rather than someone trying to decipher their ethical code. As I’ve said many time, I personally have no interest in the product from this seller in question.

They were written by knife nuts, not supreme court wannabes.

Well consider when you made your mic drop comment that you were supporting a well conducted argument based on the rules set out by knife nuts. The rules cannot be both rock solid by which to build an argument and written poorly, right?

The emblem states, "BLADE FORUMS.COM The Leading Edge Of Knife Discussion." I hope we can all keep that in mind and recognize, that despite position, most of us are engaging in this particular discussion because we care.

you’re kind to say that, though I’d have to admit that since I believe the existence of this clone dealer isn’t going to have a very big impact to quality knife sales I don’t really have a horse in this race.

It’s all just mental gymnastics, but I can’t see a forum that spends what we do on quality knives ever blowing enough on whatever cut rate copies for it to matter much.

To be honest, I’m not even sure how the original designer could quantify profit losses from a knock-off without knowing the business of the person ripping them off. At best I imagine it would be a correlation, which itself doesn’t prove causality.

Also, if my tone seems brusque, A. I'm a jerk for the most part

You’re not a jerk- give yourself some credit. You just get fired up about stuff you care about. A real jerk wouldn’t edit a message for tone and clarity. Peace, friend.

You’re about to loose your members, dealers and manufacturers. This is a pivotal moment. Please make the right decision.

And the more folks say stuff like the above from Mr. Hackenslash here, the more I step back and innately want to criticize the content. Nothing is metered, everything is over-stated to its fullest imagined impact. Like most things in life, the well-being of Blade Forums hangs on several things. If this was the lynch pin keeping this barge afloat, it means several other things like this have transpired. I’m going out on a limb and guessing that it’s been running more-or-less as successfully as competing forums.

but hey, regardless- I’m not going to support anyone who wantonly steals another person’s property. Even if it was completely legal, it’s still not right.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Topomart has been a Bladeforums dealer since November 3rd. The mods were notified shortly after they joined. Spark has posted twice in this thread. I understand that waiting and seeing is appealing because it risks nothing and demands nothing, but how long, realistically, would you ask us to wait? To be perfectly frank, I think Spark has made his stance clear. Given that, I cannot think of a more appropriate time than to discuss how we feel about that stance.

Once again you’re not wrong, but I think it’s easier for me personally to pull the trigger on something than to live with discomfort. I think the natural thing most people would do is pull the pin and react quickly.

Sparks doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy that gets coerced into a decision once his mind is made up, but that’s just an impression. Conversely, I think there’s a good chance this ... I keep forgetting their name... won’t be here in a year. I think a combination of them only being able to sell from a sketchy, at-risk website combined with a lack of BF sales would end it. Or possibly a BF infraction.

I saw we wait it out a couple months and see.

 

[MolokaiRider]

I don’t have anything deep or insightful to say really.

This topic hits home for me, as I have seen and been directly affected by IP theft along with actual genetic theft of plant materials and germ plasm.

It’s a slimy and dishonorable practice.

My gut tells me there is more to this story though. Times are hard, people are suffering, futures are uncertain.

I remain optimistic and hopeful for BladeForums, it’s owner, it’s patrons, and it’s members.

I really like this community and selfishly want it to thrive. It’s cheaper than therapy....ahhh...no I take that back.

*Sheepishly looking at piles of knives strewn about the house *

 

[EngrSorenson]

My gut tells me there is more to this story though.

Id say that’s plenty insightful. I like it better than accusations that it’s just happening because the forums needs the $350.

sorry to hear someone ripped off your work, however.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Perhaps one reason to apply a strict legal interpretation to the rules would be in deciding to not ban topomart, since no law has been broken, but merely to remove and refund their Dealer level membership, because they don't meet the standard of a vendor that members of this community could in good conscience recommend. I doubt they would stay around and join the discussion community without it, but that would be their choice.

I don’t know how I missed this, but this is exactly the kind of situation that might play out if we’re open to talking about it. At this point it’s probably the best case scenario.

 

[King of the Cheese]

@Spark , I hope you see what you’ve done. Clone apologists like EngrSorenson are running rampant with bad logic arguments. You’ve empowered them by your actions.

It’s not too late to save BF. I give you my word, I’ll cover the cost of a lost dealer membership.

You’re about to loose your members, dealers and manufacturers. This is a pivotal moment. Please make the right decision.

You and a few others here are getting fairly aggressive when it comes to responding to opinions that don’t match your own. Calling someone a “clone apologist” isn’t proper given the argument that EngrSorenson has repeatedly laid out. You shouldn’t be trying to bully people into aligning with your opinions, no matter how strongly you feel about them.

I fully realize that folks like craytab and Quiet are attempting to censor this thread through their complaints to moderators, but people should be allowed to disagree with them and others here... at least I HOPE they can, otherwise this thread is NOT a discussion but an attempt to rally some cheerleaders for ONE particular viewpoint.

So, are differing opinions permitted here or not? Because by the looks of it, you guys are really coming down hard on everyone that isn’t of the mindset to criticize Spark.