Bladeforums Supporting Clone Dealer

[jill jackson]

Dealers are listed under The Knife Exchange. This rule clearly states no clones can be sold on the exchange.

Fakes/Homages-
As fakes and homage items are a legal gray area and obviously hurt the hobby, no fake or homage items may be sold on the Exchange. Members may not knowingly sell unlicensed knockoffs or counterfeit versions of knives (or any other goods) based upon the designs of their legitimate owner, manufacturer or custom maker. Additionally, members may not sell any knife or item known or suspected to be other than as described in terms of its lineage and authenticity.

 

[Tigerfan]

We don't want people selling these questionable items on the forum, but instead we allow them to advertise.
[link to your favourite ganzo here]

When one is to purchase a dealer membership, there is a disclaimer that reads: when a dealer violates paid subscription rules they will be banned.

Rule number 3 that applies to all paid subscribers states the following:

1. Do not list items or offer services that are illegal. This includes counterfeit, clone, and knock off items. We don't want them here, period.

The service topomart offers, your honour, is selling knock off items ( an imitation of something popular ) .
I believe there is a violation.
Prosecution rests your honour.

Bam. Mic drop.

Besides being hilarious, you do have a good point about the appearance of allegiance, which is a concern. Thankfully this situation isn't really that dire- it's like a bunch of folks enjoying a Christmas party and we watch one of the attendees stand up, go over to the punch bowl, and relieve themselves in it. We all know just what to do. I think getting rid of Topomart would be the easy part- I think the hard part would be establishing the precedent that we're going to start screening members based on conduct outside of the forum. If I was a gambling man, however, I would guess that Topomart might at some point give Spark and the moderators the opportunity for a ban.

Topomart's conduct is NOT outside of the forum. They have been advertising clones in the Dealer for Sale subforum. AND, if you just click on their website, you are instantly blasted with clones on the home page. Also, if you click on a knife and then look in the lower right corner you will more often than not see tags of major manufacturers.

 

[evltcat]

I also do not support having Topomart as a dealer here on BF, because they only sell knives that are blatant clones of other peoples work and designs.

That said, this isn't my site, I don't put my blood, sweat, and tears into running it like Spark does. I'm just a member here, so all I can do is make my opinion known, and ignore Topomart.

 

[Airborne 1]

 

[Eli Chaps]

It seems to me that Spark's drawn a very reasonable line here, whether we like it or not.
Similarly, Spark doesn't go do background checks on us members to make sure we don't make our money through illicit methods.
Actually, luckily for some, Spark doesn't even require us to even have exemplary character to have an account.

Really what we'd want is for these clone manufacturers to go away altogether, but we're not going to get that. They're out there, and if they mistakenly believe that getting a dealer membership on a forum full of aficionados is going to boost sales, so be it. If I was Spark, I don't think I'd want to set a precedent of picking and choosing who gets the right to buy a membership based on activities outside the scope of the forum. He instead chooses a battle he can win, which is what products get sold on the forum, and forum conduct. Aside from what we'd ideally prefer, what practical impact does this have on us? I'm not really worried about getting enticed to buy some "clone" knife.

If I want a Benchmade, I'm going to pony up the money at one of my favorite Blade Forums reputable dealerships and get the real deal.
(and I do want a Benchmade... )

Let's not open Pandora's box and start picking and choosing who earns the right to pay money for a membership.
Instead lets battle unethical behavior in the way that matters- spreading knowledge and information.

A couple things to consider...

1. We're not talking about a vendor that sells a few shady products here or there. We're talking about a now sanctioned vendor whose entire product line is immersed in clones. Even the non-cloned items are funded by clones that are only a click away. The brands are built and fueled on IP theft. Now, to me, saying as long as they don't advertise those specific items on the forum is okay is significantly deflated by the fact that without those items the rest doesn't exist.

2. Legitimizing this vendor as a sanctioned, sponsored, official BF dealer is, in my opinion, a direct slap in the face to the honorable dealers on this site. Topomart now holds the same position as the likes of CollectorKnives, DLT Trading, and more. I just think that's a shame. To think that @knifeswapper is now, at least officially, on a lateral field with Topomart guy I just find incredibly unfortunate.

3. I understand the problem with not wanting to wade into what vendors do outside the forum but I'd counter that there's also who and what you want your own brand associated with. Sometimes you can just draw a line and say, no thank you.

4. This will only continue in the future. Writing this off as no big deal right now because it is just one vendor in a sea of aficionados is short term thinking. The reason the clone lovers and hawkers have very little presence here is they have been beat back at every turn. Now, one of them is a sanctioned official vendor. Now, the arguments against clones become complicated. That mentality will continue to invade and the defenses will be weakened and will continue to degrade.

I said before, this is @Spark's house and his rules and I am required to comply if I want to participate. But you won't find me fighting with the clone warriors any more. I'm inclined to just link them to BF's latest sanctioned vendor.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Of course, the owner of this site can make his decision based on whatever criteria he wants.

What I have learned by Topomart being a Dealer here, is that the "Paid Dealer Members" list is not the endorsement I thought it was. It simply means that those vendors paid to have Dealer level membership.

I would have figured that would have been apparent by the “gold” title under my handle.

They’ll let anyone get the gold here...

 

[Pàdruig]

Something that runs against the grain for me:

The average joe that goes out and buys a knife, whether they think it looks cool or they simply need a cutting tool, they aren't going to know what they are purchasing - clones or otherwise. They just need or want something that cuts. However, this forum is not comprised of average joes - we give a damn about our cutting tools, we are enthusiastic to a fault, and we care about our community. Hence why many here go out of their way to educate new folks and deter them from contributing to the theft of intellectual property.

Clones/knockoffs do not fit in our community and up until recently, they never have. Any insinuation that they are acceptable runs completely counter to the values that this forum has espoused since long before I was here.

In my mind, this is a simple matter and the dealer in question should have been splashed awhile ago. It makes me wonder at what sort of vetting process accompanies granting a new dealer a supporting role here or is it simply automated? Having Topomart here doesn't necessarily impact me personally as they peddle garbage that I am not interested in but to have them maintain a vaunted status - the likes of which DLT, KSF, and Collector Knives enjoy and deserve - it ends up leaving a rather rancid taste and taints the community as a whole.

Perhaps the problem will correct itself. But then, maybe not - aside from throwing out ads here and there, what has Topomart contributed to our community thus far? Jordan, Mike, Derek (RIP) are and have been pillars here - what does Topomart bring? Poorly disguised ads that promote blatant theft.

That's a problem.

 

[Tigerfan]

As the owner, doesn't Spark have the power to re-hang this sign at his front door?
Just like he has decided not to explain himself to us, he could have just as easily kicked Topomart out without an explanation to them?
Afterall, the mantra of this site has been 'just say no to clones' all along. Tossing Topomart is NOT a shift from that position. It is well within the rules and the spirit of the rules that have been in place for quite a while.
EDIT: I am NOT trying to disparage Spark. Don't know him, but from what I have gathered from my time here, he is a tough skinned, fair minded, take no BS, badass of a man. I and many many others are disappointed in his decision as we do not believe that decision is in the best interest of this site longterm. Just our opinion.

 

[GeofS]

DLT, CK, BHQ, & KC for the win...

 

[EngrSorenson]

We don't want people selling these questionable items on the forum, but instead we allow them to advertise.
[link to your favourite ganzo here]

When one is to purchase a dealer membership, there is a disclaimer that reads: when a dealer violates paid subscription rules they will be banned.

Rule number 3 that applies to all paid subscribers states the following:

1. Do not list items or offer services that are illegal. This includes counterfeit, clone, and knock off items. We don't want them here, period.

The service topomart offers, your honour, is selling knock off items ( an imitation of something popular ) .
I believe there is a violation.
Prosecution rests your honour.

I question the intent of the term illegal, particularly with regard to “clone”.

Can someone help me out on this? Preferably an Intellectual Property lawyer would be good, lol. Is a “clone” necessarily illegal because it’s identical to another knife?

Somewhat of a leading question because I’m pretty sure it’d have to violate a trademark or patent.

to that end I’m not sure if the details of these clones. Can someone (who actually knows) enlighten me?

I’d think, for instance, that the term “knockoff” is too vague. There’s not sufficient definition of what can be deemed a knockoff.

counterfeit is a meaningful term, because legally it means a product which is sold as if it was something else. Seems straightforward and very much illegal.

 

[craytab]

What I have learned by Topomart being a Dealer here, is that the "Paid Dealer Members" list is not the endorsement I thought it was. It simply means that those vendors paid to have Dealer level membership.

This is a point that should not be lost.

DLT, CK, BHQ, & KC for the win...

All on equal footing with topomart here at bladeforums....

 

[Danke42]

I question the intent of the term illegal, particularly with regard to “clone”.

Can someone help me out on this? Preferably an Intellectual Property lawyer would be good, lol. Is a “clone” necessarily illegal because it’s identical to another knife?

Somewhat of a leading question because I’m pretty sure it’d have to violate a trademark or patent.

to that end I’m not sure if the details of these clones. Can someone (who actually knows) enlighten me?

I’d think, for instance, that the term “knockoff” is too vague. There’s not sufficient definition of what can be deemed a knockoff.

counterfeit is a meaningful term, because legally it means a product which is sold as if it was something else. Seems straightforward and very much illegal.

Is this a question or a statement of opinion?

If it is a question. Yes theft is "wrong". Taking an other's property physical, virtual, or intellectual is wrong. It's kinda like being a little bit pregnant; either you are or you aren't. You can justify that you were only stealing bread to feed your starving family but we're not talking about that; we're talking about people grabbing the low hanging fruit to profit from.

If it is a statement. Well thank you for your opinion on ethics.

 

[JJ_Colt45]

Something that runs against the grain for me:

The average joe that goes out and buys a knife, whether they think it looks cool or they simply need a cutting tool, they aren't going to know what they are purchasing - clones or otherwise. They just need or want something that cuts. However, this forum is not comprised of average joes - we give a damn about our cutting tools, we are enthusiastic to a fault, and we care about our community. Hence why many here go out of their way to educate new folks and deter them from contributing to the theft of intellectual property.

Clones/knockoffs do not fit in our community and up until recently, they never have. Any insinuation that they are acceptable runs completely counter to the values that this forum has espoused since long before I was here.

In my mind, this is a simple matter and the dealer in question should have been splashed awhile ago. It makes me wonder at what sort of vetting process accompanies granting a new dealer a supporting role here or is it simply automated? Having Topomart here doesn't necessarily impact me personally as they peddle garbage that I am not interested in but to have them maintain a vaunted status - the likes of which DLT, KSF, and Collector Knives enjoy and deserve - it ends up leaving a rather rancid taste and taints the community as a whole.

Perhaps the problem will correct itself. But then, maybe not - aside from throwing out ads here and there, what has Topomart contributed to our community thus far? Jordan, Mike, Derek (RIP) are and have been pillars here - what does Topomart bring? Poorly disguised ads that promote blatant theft.

That's a problem.

I agree whole heartedly with all of this. I will add that Topmart doesn't affect me personally in that I will never buy from them or dealers like them. But a huge issue I see from this is we have newer members join all the time and start to get more into knives and they may not know what is or isn't a clone or a cheap knockoff, and they ask for advice all the time about where to buy. And one thing I have always really respected and liked about this forum is for the biggest part it tries to help new members and steer them towards good products and with that good vendors.

As many have stated already if dealers such as this are allowed to be a supporting dealer it muddies the water badly and makes it that much harder to guide people new to knives and towards reputable dealers. I mean if this dealer stays it won't be that long before it is more than just one. Then what has always been sound advice to newer members to check out the "supporting dealers list" they are all good reputable vendors ... becomes well the supporting dealers list is GTG ... except this one ... and oh that one ... and this other one too. It won't be just one for long once is gets known and I think some are over looking that.

Seem very black and white ... why open the door to the problems? That doesn't even take into account all the dealers that have faithfully supported the forums and been so good to so many of us. I think it is a cheap shot to the real supporting dealers to know now any vendor selling knockoffs can just "buy" an account and promote the theft of designs and profit from it. The GBU is full of members warning of fakes being offered and looking out for each other whether it is an individual seller or a shady dealer. Are we just turning a blind eye to it now?

I know my opinion has no significance in the big picture but I think this is sad if Topmart is allowed to hold a dealer tag here.

 

[Quiet]

I question the intent of the term illegal, particularly with regard to “clone”.

Can someone help me out on this? Preferably an Intellectual Property lawyer would be good, lol. Is a “clone” necessarily illegal because it’s identical to another knife?

Somewhat of a leading question because I’m pretty sure it’d have to violate a trademark or patent.

to that end I’m not sure if the details of these clones. Can someone (who actually knows) enlighten me?

I’d think, for instance, that the term “knockoff” is too vague. There’s not sufficient definition of what can be deemed a knockoff.

counterfeit is a meaningful term, because legally it means a product which is sold as if it was something else. Seems straightforward and very much illegal.

Dude, really? Clones are IP theft. A company has stolen the designs of another company and made cheap, inferior copies of those products and sell them branded as some knife that's made of inferior materials. In point of fact, Ganzo was selling knives for years with the Axis lock in direct theft of the patent. Some here like to argue that these knives aren't really clones because they have the "Ganzo" brand on them, but it's the exact design of another company's product. By attempting to split hairs, it's always clear that the real goal is obfuscating the fact of the matter. These Topomart bums are selling designs that don't belong to the companies whose products they carry, and they don't belong here.

 

[Sergeua]

I question the intent of the term illegal, particularly with regard to “clone”.

Can someone help me out on this? Preferably an Intellectual Property lawyer would be good, lol. Is a “clone” necessarily illegal because it’s identical to another knife?

Somewhat of a leading question because I’m pretty sure it’d have to violate a trademark or patent.

to that end I’m not sure if the details of these clones. Can someone (who actually knows) enlighten me?

I’d think, for instance, that the term “knockoff” is too vague. There’s not sufficient definition of what can be deemed a knockoff.

counterfeit is a meaningful term, because legally it means a product which is sold as if it was something else. Seems straightforward and very much illegal.

Whoever wrote these rules wanted all of the items of this nature to be included as much as possible without anything falling through the cracks. It's a shortly written rule, without going into much detail and in the context of this site, it's position on such items; I believe it translates accordingly.
All of this is mentioned by me so that Spark feels better about his decision and does not fear legal action from topomart lol.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Is this a question or a statement of opinion?

If it is a question. Yes theft is "wrong". Taking an other's property physical, virtual, or intellectual is wrong. It's kinda like being a little bit pregnant; either you are or you aren't. You can justify that you were only stealing bread to feed your starving family but we're not talking about that; we're talking about people grabbing the low hanging fruit to profit from.

If it is a statement. Well thank you for your opinion on ethics.

you misinterpret my intentions. It’s an honest question. This is why I was hoping someone with credentials would chime in, and not some guy who thinks he understand what’s legal. Strictly, US of A, intellectual property law.

for instance a patent ends at 20 years. The plans for the patented technology are freely available at the library of Congress. At the end of 20 years, is it legal to make the item according to the plan? That would be a “clone”.

and then from a legal stand point, how similar does a product need to be before it’s a “clone”, if in fact there’s such a legal term. For instance a “1911” is substantially the same, one brand to another. A chef’s knife is basically the same from brand to brand.

And let’s leave this explanation to a person with credentials. People keep talking about illegal, I just want to know what is strictly illegal when it comes to IP.

 

[Quiet]

you misinterpret my intentions. It’s an honest question. This is why I was hoping someone with credentials would chime in, and not some guy who thinks he understand what’s legal. Strictly, US of A, intellectual property law.

for instance a patent ends at 20 years. The plans for the patented technology are freely available at the library of Congress. At the end of 20 years, is it legal to make the item according to the plan? That would be a “clone”.

and then from a legal stand point, how similar does a product need to be before it’s a “clone”, if in fact there’s such a legal term. For instance a “1911” is substantially the same, one brand to another. A chef’s knife is basically the same from brand to brand.

And let’s leave this explanation to a person with credentials. People keep talking about illegal, I just want to know what is strictly illegal when it comes to IP.

More obfuscation. @Sal Glesser has stated directly here in the past that these cloners selling his designs has impacted his bottom line. The quote is there for you to search out. He's not an IP lawyer, however, so I expect that means that he's "just some guy who thinks he understands what's legal" if I'm reading the intent of your post here correctly.

 

[Danke42]

you misinterpret my intentions. It’s an honest question. This is why I was hoping someone with credentials would chime in, and not some guy who thinks he understand what’s legal. Strictly, US of A, intellectual property law.

for instance a patent ends at 20 years. The plans for the patented technology are freely available at the library of Congress. At the end of 20 years, is it legal to make the item according to the plan? That would be a “clone”.

and then from a legal stand point, how similar does a product need to be before it’s a “clone”, if in fact there’s such a legal term. For instance a “1911” is substantially the same, one brand to another. A chef’s knife is basically the same from brand to brand.

And let’s leave this explanation to a person with credentials. People keep talking about illegal, I just want to know what is strictly illegal when it comes to IP.

Do you want an IP property lawyer who's representing the defendant or the plaintiff? Because you are going to get two different answers.

Theft is wrong and against the law in most places.. If you're still not sure about that send me 10K via Paypal friends and family and will give you back something valuable. Is that more clear?

 

[EngrSorenson]

Dude, really? Clones are IP theft.

You’re a lawyer, I take it?

You guys are reading too much into this.

you don’t have to steal plans to make a copy. All you have to do is buy one, and take it apart- reverse engineering is pretty well established.

there’s nothing wrong with thinking about this deeper. How about the GEC most recent run of 23’s based on the old Remington trapper? Does that constitute a clone?

I’m just thinking critically, and damn anyone who can’t. If you can’t ask as simple question without some kind of condemnation, this clearly is a train wreck of a conversation.

 

[Quiet]

You’re a lawyer, I take it?

You guys are reading too much into this.

you don’t have to steal plans to make a copy. All you have to do is buy one, and take it apart- reverse engineering is pretty well established.

there’s nothing wrong with thinking about this deeper. How about the GEC most recent run of 23’s based on the old Remington trapper? Does that constitute a clone?

I’m just thinking critically, and damn anyone who can’t. If you can’t ask as simple question without some kind of condemnation, this clearly is a train wreck of a conversation.

The issue here is that everything you are asking has been discussed in countless threads on this forum. Also, more obfuscation, we aren't talking about a company making a classic design that many companies made. We're talking about a Chinese company making clones of knives like the Benchmade Griptilian, and the Spyderco PM2, among many others. These are not general designs, like say, a Remington Trapper, a design that was made by many companies over the years. Only one company makes the PM2, another company makes a clear copy that they "changed", by adding Benchmade's proprietary (at the time) lock to it. Anyone using "Critical thinking" understands this, no law degree is actually required. It's why Spyderco has been fighting these cloners for years.