Bowie knife

Lets not forget this thread when the "Best Thread of 99" vote rolls around!!! This has been great, a special thanks to Mr. Fisk.

I would like to address Tom Mayos final comment.
the best combat weapons today are far superior to those of the alamo, as with todays knife designs.....
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I submit that the advantages perceived by todays blades are due to todays way of thinking about being "armed". Many fighting blades are @7.5", short handled, and much narrower than a bowie. I am specutlating that this ability to appear less armed, sleek, more compact is appealing to todays "warriors". More, dare I say that word, "tactical". I have seen bowie designs dismissed many times in a sale based only on appearance of the blade, a sheeple effect if you will. The buyers have also said that the bowie is what they would want in a real survival/fight situation. You see they just don't feel comfortable carrying it around! I believe if men could be men the bowie would still be a popular carry (no offense ladies).
Finally, I believe the bowie is not just a "big honkin' knife". I feel it is the most valuable example of something that works, proven and refined by time, and demonstrated by real use by real people .... not advertising.


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>)-RadarMan-(<


 
Radarman all I have to say to you is
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AMEN
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-Greg Johnson
ICQ#4236341

 
When I was a lad, back in the dim, dark 1950s, I remember being laughed at because I defended the .45 ACP as a top defense pistol. Now this was before Col. Jeff Cooper had made it so acceptable, and everybody thought that the 9mm Luger and Walther P-38 wer the ultimate and the Colt was a crude American piece of junk. My, how styles change. I think that we are seeing some of this in the love affair that young, and not so young, Americans are having with Oriental, and especially Japanese, blades. The Bowie does not look "cool" to these people as it is big and it is a part of our history (familiarity breeds contempt). This is not to gainsay any other type of knife, but history has shown the Bowie to be super effective in many varieties of situations, and, like the Colt .45, its day will come again.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
 
Mr. Fisk, I am sorry to bother you, but have you any information on the "Bart Moore Bowie" as yet?
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Walk in the Light,
Hugh


[This message has been edited by FullerH (edited 07 April 1999).]
 
In reference to Tom Mayo's comment :

as for the forged stock removal cold steel randall debate above...you couldnt break any of those knives with your bare hands if your life depended upon it.
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Them's fighting words
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Anyway, getting serious, neutral balance is not superior in every respect over being blade heavy. Just because a Randall is lighter in the hand than a Trailmaster does not make it a better knife in every respect. For some types of cutting sure, in others I'd rather have the Trailmaster, and if I could only pick one I'd get the stronger.

As for Randalls breaking, they have. Ask Les Robertson about his experience with them compared to Brends knives. This is documented in the custom forum.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, just because one Randall broke doesn't mean that they will all fail, and conversely, just because one Brend didn't break doesn't mean that others won't. Admitedly, I don't know much about either knife except that I eventually plan to own them both. I did ask family members that had been in the military about knives the other day(have several ex-military family members) and out of all of them one wore a Randal #1 for many years as a Ranger. He used it for everything including prying, chopping, opening ammo cans and other boxes, etc. He said it was by far the toughest knife in his company(or squad or whatever the hell he called it). He got it because he continually broke knives, because of his unusuall strength( at 6'5" he was delegated the M-60 as his weapon).

So which is better, stock removal D-2 or Forged O-1(or whatever else they use)? Six of one and a half dozen of the other? I think it's up to the individual blade. Also, isn't the Brend a hollow grind, versus the saber or slightly convex grind of the Randall.

Also, remember that there is a whole lot more Randalls out there than Brends so breaks may happen more often, but the percentages may be better.

These are points to consider. I don't see one being better than the other in my opinion. They both sure look good.
 
Tom should have said no human being could break any of those knives with his bare hands. Only Bill Martino can say a large hairy monster with big feet can't break his knives with its bare hands.
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-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Well, I stand corrected. I loooked up Mr. Stamp's reference and Les Robertson did, indeed, report a failure of a Randall Mod. 14. It seems about 1.5 inches broke off a tip. I wonder if the Randall company had a crack at finding out if there was a flaw in the blade, or something. In any case, I note that, with reference to earlier parts of this thread, it was a blade, not the tang that broke. According to the post, they had chipped out a block of ice for an igloo and were trying to lever it up. The owner of the Mod. 14 dug his tip into the ice and levered. It broke the tip! Passing strange, as I am certain that Randalls have survived equal pressures before. I would surely love to hear from Randall if they have a comment on this.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
 
I wonder what the temperature was that day. Extreme cold has an effect on steel (spoken by one who once decided to change the water pump in a car when the temperature was about zero Fahrenheit and sheared off all the bolts. Dealing with sheared water pump bolts in a transverse engine car is all kinds of fun, by the way.)

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Cougar, having done car work in cold (for us Johnny Rebs in Virginia) weather of 10-15 degrees F, my heart goes out to you!

Robertson said that it was 35 below 0, F. at that time. He made the point that the Brend blade was cryogenicly treated and stood up well.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
 
Cobalt you are correct one data point does not a case make. Anything could have caused that fracture and in any case a tip breaking off is not the end of the world. Randall have a strong reputation and I think I will eventually get one for my brother who has slightly different desires in a knife than me and it would make a nice present and of course an excellent incentive to return the favor.

As for the Brend, I think it is hollow ground but it retains the full width of the spine throughout the middle which accounts somewhat I would assume for the strength. This was discussed in some detail on the custom forum and R. J. Martin (I think) commented on aspects of the Brends geometry which give it its strength.

Regarding temperature, while I would expect it to make some difference, most makers that I know have said that it takes more of a temperature change than that to make a significant difference. I would suppose if you induced it really quickly though it would be a problem. I don't see that as being too likely in terms of actual field use. I have not seen any appreciable difference at about -25 in regards to edge toughness or lateral strength. Hopefully we will have a stronger winter next year and I can get more points in. I could just bring it into the lab and put it in dry ice but that seems to artificial.

I would wonder about extreme heats as well but that is of no interest to me aside from idle curiosity as once the heat rises I would give out much before any knife unless it was made out of silly putty.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

I think, if you read the post on the Randall breaking, it said that the one guy was cutting the ice with the Randall. This means that the Randall was already being subjected to ice(Freezing) for a little while and was then used to pry. The Brend was not. It was unsheathed and used to pry. This means that it was not used to pry at the same temperature. This is a bit of a difference. As you know cold temperatures make all materials more brittle and this was a disadvantage for the Randall. Also, I do consider the D-2 with it's higher alloy content more resistant to climactic changes than O-1.

Just to give you an idea of what temperature can do, I pulled out some stats from an old mechanical engineering book frm my school days.

Impact resistance on a low carbon steel(charpy) is charted as 45 ft.-lb's at 60 degrees F. The same steel at 0 degrees F had a Charpy value of 9.

The Charpy impact resistance for a typical stainless steel low carbon is 60 ft.-lb's at 90 degrees F. and drops to 58 ft.-lb.'s at 0 degrees F.

Both steels are 0.20% carbon and the Charpy number correlate to these, untreated steels. The numbers aren't as important as the difference in the values at the temperatures.

It's easy to see why the D-2 may not have been so affected compared to O-1(assuming the Randal was O-1, since I think most are). Besides the fact that the Randall was already in the ice for a while, when the prying started. The Brend was not. It was unsheathed and used, so it's ambient temperature was higher. All these factors could have led to a big difference.

The reason I don't think it would have been a flaw is that forging usually removes flaws within the steel(not always of course) and it also considerably reduces grain size.

Of course these are all supositions and not based on any facts whatsoever. hehe
 
Cliff, that is a good article. I missed the part about his cutting the ice with the brend also. Seems like they both cut ice before they pried, which means that the Brend was also quite cold when it was used to pry. I think I would snap at -35 deg F.
 
FullerHI posted the info about the Bart Moore Bowie repo in the other bowie thread. Sorry about that. Good luck
 
Mr. Chicahiro,

I have to heartily agree with Parker on the Bagwell Bowies and James Keating's Training. Bill has made two knives for me, the last a Hell's Belle, and they both move like magic. The Hell's Belle is the longer of the two, but is much more quick in the hand. The back cut, using the sharpened false edge, is a devastating, unstopable manuever. You might want to check out Keatings web page at www.combattech.com. If you can't get a Bagwell Bowie, Ontario Knives has collaborated with Bill on a production version of the Hell's Belle at a very reasonable price. I also own several Trailmasters, and while this is a fine knife, it doesn't compare to a hand forgred Bagwell.

Mike
 
Thank you, Mr. Fisk. I will write him a letter about the knife.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
 
Mike, are the Bagwell Bowies primarily self-defence knives or is heavy utility included in their design as well?

-Cliff
 
Cliff,
Bagwell's Hell's Belle makes no pretentions about being anything but a fighting knife, and excells at this, though I suppose it could be used otherwise. His regular Bowies will be made to the intened use of the buyer. He will ask you if you want primarily a camp knife, general purpose, or fighter. A Master Bladesmith can do things in the hand forging process that enhances the balance and feel of the knife when put in motion. While there are many excellent knives on the market, having a knife that is tailored to your individual characteristics (ht., wt., hand size, rt. or lt. handed) is a joy that has to be experienced to be truly appreciated. A Master Bladesmith can do this with hand forging. Bill Bagwell is considered by many to be the best at this art.
If you're lookin for a fighting Bowie and can't wait the two years for a Bagwell, Bill and Ontario have collaborated in a production version of the Hell's Belle and a smaller (9.5" blade) version called the Gambler. I've seen and handled the production versions of these knives and for the $175-$275 involved, you can't buy more knife for the money. Ontario did their homework!!!

Mike
 
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