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Brands comparable to busse
- Thread starter Matt81818
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i feel that Busse makes excellent knives and own a bunch
I also love survive knives, Fehrman and ESEE
I have used all of those knives hard and they can stand to serious abuse
I also love survive knives, Fehrman and ESEE
I have used all of those knives hard and they can stand to serious abuse
zombieassassin
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Oh...to the answer of totally comparable to Busse.....I'd have to say Swamp Rat is a very close second....very close.
KingMC
The Pun-isher
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Of all the knives I've seen of comparable anything to Busse, the ones that standout are from the small custom makers on the forums here: Ben Tendick, Josiah Gravelle, Big Chris, and more. They all make great blades at lower prices than Busse out of top-shelf blade steels with great heat-treats and very pretty and useful designs. I would say browse the maker's market here on the forums and see if you can't come up with a great knife for less than an average Busse with a warranty that rivals it (small makers usually have the best warranties).
I'm not here asking for an answer and have only read 4 of the 5 pages so far, but I thought his question about an example was no unfair. I think a knife that "cuts well for a long time" has the potential to be the epitome of knifey goodness, but if that's only "ordinary/average" use by average users, whereas one might need a tool (I am guessing a knife) that does more than cut well for a long time, and operated under extremes, I don't think an example is out of line. I'm honestly curious, but again, not trolling the waters for an answer, if you think it's too silly to ask.
Whether we're talking Busse, Fallkniven or anything in between I'm sure we can all agree a knife's purpose is to cut things well, and for me personally, any knife that can fulfill its purpose like that is a good thing.
Cobalt
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Well, first, there is nothing comparable to INFI in overall performance. There are better steels at specific things like corrosion resistance and edge holding, but when you combine those two with toughness and lateral strength, no nothing compares. Even S7 is not as tough. S5 is closer to INFI in toughness. And both are tougher than S7 which is tougher than 3V. I know because I have owned all these steels and used them.
As for SR101 and SR77, there is a lot of misinformation rolling around that they are renamed 52100 and S7. Well that is pure BS as well. They are their own steel with slightly different formula. Same person commented that INFI is also a made up name for a known steel. That is a straight out lie because INFI's chemical formula is known and there is no other steel like it.
As for what I would get if the Busse and kin were not available. There are several custom makers who can make a great product for under $500 out of S7 or cpm3V. I would go there first and probably Survive knives as well. Then at a much lower price point ESEE is an awesome choice with a warranty that is fully the equal of Busse.
As for SR101 and SR77, there is a lot of misinformation rolling around that they are renamed 52100 and S7. Well that is pure BS as well. They are their own steel with slightly different formula. Same person commented that INFI is also a made up name for a known steel. That is a straight out lie because INFI's chemical formula is known and there is no other steel like it.
As for what I would get if the Busse and kin were not available. There are several custom makers who can make a great product for under $500 out of S7 or cpm3V. I would go there first and probably Survive knives as well. Then at a much lower price point ESEE is an awesome choice with a warranty that is fully the equal of Busse.
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How's is the steel formula different in the sr101-52100 and the sr77-s7? My references was zknives. They show the same compositions on the graph.
I thought it was Jerry's wizardary with heat treatment not that they were special alloys.
For SR101, check on deviations in carbon, chromium and manganese....not sure what they've done with S7. I've used and made knives from some of the steels mentioned(particularly 3V, A2, and O1) for mostly bush craft and animal processing, and I've still landed on a small thin INFI knife as my best "all round" performer. I have quite the collection of high end knives and gave up on hating Busse's when I started buying them. That's just me. I think others make some really fine knives and there are plenty of alternatives. I also find Busse knives to be the best of all that I've tried. That's my prerogative.
wroughndt
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The first paragraph. Charpy test results or complete H.S.? In my experience 3V is extremely tough, have never had it rust and holds an edge better than most. Plus I can get it in knives that cost $100 and aren't ground with obtuse edges.
This is the kind of hype that so many object to, myself included. Back up your assertions with actual testing and numbers and then we'll talk. Otherwise, someone else will just say that based on their testing, 3V is stronger and tougher. And we're back at square one.
So what are the chemical formulas then? I've seen it stated many times that SR101 is 52100 with a special heat treat - which means it's simply 52100. If it isn't 52100, then what is it?
Cobalt
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go into the busse forum and look at the recent threads about steels. You will see Jerry's response for SR101 and SR77 has the mods as well. Those are his words, the guy that brought both out, not me. I'd like to see where the man himself stated that these steels were just 52100 and S7 with a special HT. AS for ZK knives, he only can post what he gleans and when there is no factual data, there isn't much he can do. But I will soon solve that problem for him.
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
― Carl Sagan
Cobalt, you seem to confuse facts with opinions.
This is an opinion:
I've used all of them except S5 and I disagree with you. J. Busse disagrees with you too about S7 not being as tough. They have stated that Infi wasn't as tough as S7.
Got to disagree with these too.
Because you don't know what steel Infi was/is doesn't mean it doesn't match/fall within ( if you have sen comp analysis sheets from steel foundries that come with each batch of steel bought you know the results vary from batch to batch even with the same manufacturer. Also note when recycled scrap is included in the batch trace elements of strange things can show up that aren't in the specs. Copper, titanium, even aluminium are examples that occur often in the specs of a steel grade but are not the only ones. Even lead and mercury, cobalt in steels that don't have it in the specs. You won't see them in percentages that high though.) At least the specs that have been discussed in older threads. I've seen two different comps so far given and one falls in the range of an off the shelf steel. Naturally I didn't do or see the testing that gave that composition posted so I really can't vouch for it's accuracy, but only that those specs matched a steel already in use and made by a company with a plant at Waseon ( sp?). Of course that company has a different owner now too but they still exist and are tied in with the rest of the companies now owned by Carpenter ( including Crucible too now)
With a proprietary steel anything could be called Infi by the owner. It could have been different steels and I don't mean just Infi, and Infi(mod).
― Carl Sagan
Cobalt, you seem to confuse facts with opinions.
This is an opinion:
Not a fact at all.
I've used all of them except S5 and I disagree with you. J. Busse disagrees with you too about S7 not being as tough. They have stated that Infi wasn't as tough as S7.
Got to disagree with these too.
Because you don't know what steel Infi was/is doesn't mean it doesn't match/fall within ( if you have sen comp analysis sheets from steel foundries that come with each batch of steel bought you know the results vary from batch to batch even with the same manufacturer. Also note when recycled scrap is included in the batch trace elements of strange things can show up that aren't in the specs. Copper, titanium, even aluminium are examples that occur often in the specs of a steel grade but are not the only ones. Even lead and mercury, cobalt in steels that don't have it in the specs. You won't see them in percentages that high though.) At least the specs that have been discussed in older threads. I've seen two different comps so far given and one falls in the range of an off the shelf steel. Naturally I didn't do or see the testing that gave that composition posted so I really can't vouch for it's accuracy, but only that those specs matched a steel already in use and made by a company with a plant at Waseon ( sp?). Of course that company has a different owner now too but they still exist and are tied in with the rest of the companies now owned by Carpenter ( including Crucible too now)
With a proprietary steel anything could be called Infi by the owner. It could have been different steels and I don't mean just Infi, and Infi(mod).
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Please provide a link, I looked at the first 3 pages of the index and couldn't find it.
From the Swamp Rat website:
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SR-101 Steel
(Think of it as 52-100 tool steel with added Kryptonite)
SR-101 Steel is the combination of an extremely fine-grained tool steel and a proprietary multi-step tempering protocol. This process includes the incorporation of a deep cryogenic treatment for grain refinement which adds greatly to the overall toughness and strength of what will most certainly prove to be your favorite blade.
--------------
This tells me that it's 52100 with a custom heat treat. Unless I'm supposed to believe in Kryptonite. I've also seen it stated dozens of times by forumites that it is 52100 with a proprietary heat treat, and I've never seen that contradicted. So I'd be interested to see what Jerry says.
Back to the other point, what data is there telling us that INFI is the best all around steel? I'd like to see some published numbers from lab testing, as other steels have had done to them.
From the Swamp Rat website:
--------------------------
SR-101 Steel
(Think of it as 52-100 tool steel with added Kryptonite)
SR-101 Steel is the combination of an extremely fine-grained tool steel and a proprietary multi-step tempering protocol. This process includes the incorporation of a deep cryogenic treatment for grain refinement which adds greatly to the overall toughness and strength of what will most certainly prove to be your favorite blade.
--------------
This tells me that it's 52100 with a custom heat treat. Unless I'm supposed to believe in Kryptonite. I've also seen it stated dozens of times by forumites that it is 52100 with a proprietary heat treat, and I've never seen that contradicted. So I'd be interested to see what Jerry says.
Back to the other point, what data is there telling us that INFI is the best all around steel? I'd like to see some published numbers from lab testing, as other steels have had done to them.
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Every manufacturer holds their heat treat protocol as proprietary information. That doesn't mean better, or magical though it's sometimes inferred there is something special about it for marketing purposes. That is what marketing is all about and I don't think there is anything wrong with it.
Companies don't create fanboys that go into attack mode when the supreme nature of the product isn't acknowledged. It's human nature itself and the choosing of echo chamber environments that make us feel superior because of our purchases that unleash the rabid-est of us knife knuts onto the poor schmucks that don't know about the divine superiority of the products we buy. That, or another damn conspiracy of bad guys trying to put down our products.!
Companies don't create fanboys that go into attack mode when the supreme nature of the product isn't acknowledged. It's human nature itself and the choosing of echo chamber environments that make us feel superior because of our purchases that unleash the rabid-est of us knife knuts onto the poor schmucks that don't know about the divine superiority of the products we buy. That, or another damn conspiracy of bad guys trying to put down our products.!
Here are a couple of facts....
I got on couple of destruction testing kicks back in 2008 with some homemade 3v knives that I made were Bos treated with almost identical geometries to the Busse I tested them against. I know that may not be the be all, end all treatment for 3v, but it lost on all accounts. But as far as edge retention, I feel that 3v wins out, but only marginally. I wouldn't provide you guys with any proof because it's not important enough to me. I know this might not be conclusive for anyone here, but it was enough for me, and that' s a fact.
Another fact is this is a ridiculous argument. If you destroy a knife made from any of these steels, you were trying. No one here is going to provide enough proof for anyone else that Busse is superior....and no one here can prove that they're not....not to anyone who's made up their mind about Busse knives.
I got on couple of destruction testing kicks back in 2008 with some homemade 3v knives that I made were Bos treated with almost identical geometries to the Busse I tested them against. I know that may not be the be all, end all treatment for 3v, but it lost on all accounts. But as far as edge retention, I feel that 3v wins out, but only marginally. I wouldn't provide you guys with any proof because it's not important enough to me. I know this might not be conclusive for anyone here, but it was enough for me, and that' s a fact.
Another fact is this is a ridiculous argument. If you destroy a knife made from any of these steels, you were trying. No one here is going to provide enough proof for anyone else that Busse is superior....and no one here can prove that they're not....not to anyone who's made up their mind about Busse knives.
Cobalt
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No Busse does not disagree with me at all, but I am sure he will have much to disagree with you on.
I know exactly what steel INFI is. New and old, because I tested them myself. INFI falls in the spec of off the shelf steel? Really. Great, I have been trying to find that out for a long time. Are we talking the original spec or modern spec of INFI. I have tested both. As have others. I would love to know what off the shelf steel busse is using for INFI.
And the one who is confusing fact with opinion is you not me. Please provide the following data that you stated before I came to this thread:
1. Where has Jerry made the challenge contest difficult for other knife makers?
2. Where did Busse state that SR101 and 52100 are the same? Where did he state that SR77 and S7 are the same?
3. What off the shelf steel(designation) is used in INFI? I know it's not A8 or cpm3V. So what other steel is it? It has to have a designation?
Sodak, feel free to answer the last two if you know as well. Patiently waiting.
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Get stuffed Cobalt. You are changing the subject.
Do some reading
Do some reading. We have done this before. I stated I've seen different comps posted and have no way to check their accuracy. I have also talked with others in the industry. There aren't secrets.
Why do you get so upset? I've repeatedly stated they are good knives and well built. We definitely disagree on their superiority over all other steels. I don't believe in any one steel being the best any more than I think there is any best tool in my tool box. No argument you make or no matter how long you attempt to refute my statements will change my feelings because they are the sum of my experiences and preferences are always subjective things.
What exactly do you look for in these threads? Some kind of victory?
Heh!
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Ok, I guess I misunderstood, it was in the same context with Carbon V "secret", and that was no secret being on Busse website (SR101 and SR77). So, yeah they invented new name for standard spec steels, but the spec was no secret.
Yeah, which is why I pointed out that unlike Carbon V both SR-s were known from the get go.
I don't doubt that. As it is, Busses are designed for extreme abuse, and it's not difficult to find knives that will cut better and have more wear resistance. I have a plenty myself. What i was pointing out was the controversies and debates around broken BRKT replacements complications with replacements. Haven't seen things like that with Busse. I don't recall any broken Busses either, except for one skeleton key which was bent 90deg. Don't have BRKT or ESEE to bend, probably I wouldn't
Yup. OP was asking about Busse equivalents, so certain knives would be excluded from comparisions, since Busses have rather specialized profile.
AntDog
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Jerry Busse - "We actually tweaked the Carbon and the Chromium content down a bit and increased the Manganese for added toughness.
This provided a much tougher steel than regular 52100 but with similar edge holding when treated the way we treat steel.
This set the benchmark for the performance we expected out of our steel labeled as SR-101."
Cobalt - the steel Mastiff thinks is INFI is A8 (mod). At least that's how it appears in the content of the thread he keeps referencing. The same thread where Ankerson states INFI IS Patented.
It's a pretty good read actually, with points on both sides.
This provided a much tougher steel than regular 52100 but with similar edge holding when treated the way we treat steel.
This set the benchmark for the performance we expected out of our steel labeled as SR-101."
Cobalt - the steel Mastiff thinks is INFI is A8 (mod). At least that's how it appears in the content of the thread he keeps referencing. The same thread where Ankerson states INFI IS Patented.
It's a pretty good read actually, with points on both sides.
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