Brands comparable to busse

[Gator97]

Since we're on the steel subject, Jerry, is it valid to assume the modifications to 52100 and S7 still keep SR101 and SR77 inside AISI specs? Just for my steel chart, I like precision
I have to wait till the evening for the drink, so I'll join you later

 

[sodak]

here you go:

SR-101 started off in 2002 with a slightly modified 52100. We actually tweaked the Carbon and the Chromium content down a bit and increased the Manganese for added toughness. [...]

Ok, I'm editing your quote here because of volume of text. So it's good to know that he has changed the levels of some of the alloys.

Since we're on the steel subject, Jerry, is it valid to assume the modifications to 52100 and S7 still keep SR101 and SR77 inside AISI specs? Just for my steel chart, I like precision
I have to wait till the evening for the drink, so I'll join you later

Then my next question is, is it still within specs to be called 52100?

Setting that aside, my next questions are about your claims of superiority of strength, impact toughness, and edge holding (corrosion is a non-issue for me).

1. Edge holding - I still regard the "knife maker" challenge as a publicity stunt. I guarantee you that I have knives that will probably outlast INFI by a factor of 10, I am absolutely certain by a factor of 2 or 3. There's no reason to have a maker engage in this competition except for a publicity stunt, I could easily do this with my knives, and I just might have to do this when work settles down a little.

2. Strength and toughness - Are there any lab or industry tests comparing INFI to other steels to substantiate your claims?

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Ok, I'm editing your quote here because of volume of text. So it's good to know that he has changed the levels of some of the alloys.




Then my next question is, is it still within specs to be called 52100?

Setting that aside, my next questions are about your claims of superiority of strength, impact toughness, and edge holding (corrosion is a non-issue for me).

1. Edge holding - I still regard the "knife maker" challenge as a publicity stunt. I guarantee you that I have knives that will probably outlast INFI by a factor of 10, I am absolutely certain by a factor of 2 or 3. There's no reason to have a maker engage in this competition except for a publicity stunt, I could easily do this with my knives, and I just might have to do this when work settles down a little.

2. Strength and toughness - Are there any lab or industry tests comparing INFI to other steels to substantiate your claims?

I'm generally inclined to believe that INFI is very tough, but I would dearly love to see Charpy testing numbers.

 

[AntDog]

Hey Bossman, great posts! Time to break out my good stuff. :thumbup:

 

[craytab]

Hey Bossman, great posts! Time to break out my good stuff. :thumbup:

Nice!

 

[ocnLogan]

Since we're on the steel subject, Jerry, is it valid to assume the modifications to 52100 and S7 still keep SR101 and SR77 inside AISI specs? Just for my steel chart, I like precision

This is a great question.

Its good to hear that the steels are different enough to have a different name, but it would be nice to know if they still fall inside the specs listed out for the steels we thought they were. At the very least, the answer should probably be updated on the scrapyard website/etc, as most people use company websites as sources of "definitive" information (which it should be), which was where some of the confusion on this thread stemmed from (I think the website was quoted at least three times).

And, I mentioned this before. While I have NO problem with INFI being some mysterious steel, I have slight issue with how it was changed, and then the same name was retained. While INFI might be "secret", it just seems to make sense that "INFI" means a specific composition, so IMO the "new" INFI (which is different in its composition from the "original/old" INFI) should be called something else. Even if you just listed it as INFI 2.0, and said the name change is because the composition changed slightly, while retaining the same performance but cheaper to produce or whatever would be fine with me.

And, FWIW, I do consider Busse knives to be very tough, quality made knives. Just the price, looks, choil, and many times the size/weight makes them not my ideal knife, which is why I don't own any. I guess I'm just a poor sap that still is happy with how 1095 and other steels are meeting my needs .

 

[Cobalt]

Ok, I'm editing your quote here because of volume of text. So it's good to know that he has changed the levels of some of the alloys.




Then my next question is, is it still within specs to be called 52100?

Setting that aside, my next questions are about your claims of superiority of strength, impact toughness, and edge holding (corrosion is a non-issue for me).

1. Edge holding - I still regard the "knife maker" challenge as a publicity stunt. I guarantee you that I have knives that will probably outlast INFI by a factor of 10, I am absolutely certain by a factor of 2 or 3. There's no reason to have a maker engage in this competition except for a publicity stunt, I could easily do this with my knives, and I just might have to do this when work settles down a little.

2. Strength and toughness - Are there any lab or industry tests comparing INFI to other steels to substantiate your claims?

Answer to
1. I have no doubt you do have knives that will hold an edge better than INFI. Not one of those knives will be nearly as tough.

2. Not that I know of. Because as bluntcut was hinting to in other threads, the HT does make a difference. AS for my claims. There is a thread on the busse forum called busse/kin superiority. IT is a sticky thread. If you go check it out, you will see busse knives doing over and over what 99% of other knife owners would cringe at. If you have been on the forums at all you have seen what INFI can do. Just to give you an idea of edge toughness. Read this.

As of late I have been doing some chopping with a BM-E (early one bought when they first came out), and my SHBM. Now my BM isn't exactly standard, it is 0.275", no clip to the point, and weighs 660 g. I have also significantly changed the edge profile, so I wasn't looking at the raw performance as much as looking at how they handled, to check out the new grip mods mainly. More on that later.

I started off cutting some fresh wood, mainly pine, that went ok. Later on I switched to scrap lumber as I didn't have as much free time, and had to fit in chopping whenever I got a free half hour or so. This is when the surprises started setting in. I could not keep a working edge on my BM. The edge would constantly roll to a visible degree, you could see it bend or ripple. To be specific these were just barely visible by eye, the steel was 0.005" to 0.010" thick behind the bend.

Now the ripples were easily removed with a little pressure, no chipping as I would have expected. However I was not overly pleased by having to stop chopping every half dozen blocks (I was using mainly 4x4 and 6x6 posts), to fix the edge. Now I knew that the edge was much more acute than standard, but from memory, the last time I checked it, it wasn't that thin that I would expect the the damage to set in this frequently.

The last draw was when I went back to fresh wood and during bucking some spruce I whacked the knife into a knot in the worst possible way. It was kind of "movie-like" as I oculd sort of feel the chop happening in slow motion. I knew it was going to be bad and when it hit the knot I didn't have to check the edge to know it was going to be dented. Sure enough it was rippled to this time about 0.020" thick.

I straightened it with a nail set and a hammer and then adjusted the profile slightly by adding a convex taper to the last one mm or so of edge. I then checked the edge profile to see how much I had thickened it. It spec'ed out at ~11 degrees per side in the last bit of edge. This took me back because that is where I thought it was before I just altered it.

So I check the primary edge profile and it is ~8.5 degrees per side. Ok, now I understand why it was rippling so easy (relative of course, it only got damaged on knots with full heavy swings). This was a flat bevel, no convex taper, on a heavy blade balanced knife. Not bad at all. And of course, no chipping and all damage was easily repaired with the aid of a large hammer.

For those curious, I checked my notes on the ~8.5 degree mod, I did this to check just how much damage would be induce with wood working as I figured that INFI would set a solid benchmark. I was trying to figure out just how low you could go and still be functional. I seems that a sub mm micro-bevel would be enough for all but the worst impacts.

-Cliff

 

[wuyeah]

Looks like Jerry ruin the fun. I was enjoying myself reading this thread. Now it is all peace and quiet...NEXT!

 

[Ken44]

*snip*
I still regard the "knife maker" challenge as a publicity stunt.
*snip*

Haven't talked to you in a while, friend. Hope all is well.

The challenge is in no way a stunt.
If a manufacturer has the guts to step up to the plate they would get instant notoriety if they beat Busse at a live test at Blade.
Their sale's would go through the roof overnight !

Don't think for a second that many haven't thought about boosting their sales/name by doing this.
They KNOW it would, but they also know they could come out looking pretty weak.

I also can't see why so many people get so worked up over Busse claims. Why bother ??? If you choose not to believe Jerry, or the many that use Busse harder than any knife I've seen, just move along to a brand you like, and one that has an owner and fans that you do trust. Plenty of other brands out there.

 

[Steve6387]

Deleted... Post lost its momentum.

 

[dogrunner]

Haven't talked to you in a while, friend. Hope all is well.

...

I also can't see why so many people get so worked up over Busse claims. Why bother ??? If you choose not to believe Jerry, or the many that use Busse harder than any knife I've seen, just move along to a brand you like, and one that has an owner and fans that you do trust. Plenty of other brands out there.

Well said. This is the thing I do not get. Like many here, I own a lot of knives. There are plenty that hold an edge better than Busse Infi, including in my experience SR101, which is actually one of my favorite steels (don't care what it is, I do care that it is... tough + good edge holding). When I don't want to sharpen I grab one in S90V. If I want one that I don't have to worry about breaking or chipping, Infi is fine. The grind makes a bigger difference to cutting performance, as we all know, and a lot of Busse's have pretty thick edges. I pick a thinner slicier model if that is what I need. Busse and kin definitely have a place in the tool box though.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Well said. This is the thing I do not get. Like many here, I own a lot of knives. There are plenty that hold an edge better than Busse Infi, including in my experience SR101, which is actually one of my favorite steels (don't care what it is, I do care that it is... tough + good edge holding). When I don't want to sharpen I grab one in S90V. If I want one that I don't have to worry about breaking or chipping, Infi is fine. The grind makes a bigger difference to cutting performance, as we all know, and a lot of Busse's have pretty thick edges. I pick a thinner slicier model if that is what I need. Busse and kin definitely have a place in the tool box though.

This seems like an extremely practical and realistic way of looking at it.

 

[The Mastiff]

Push cutting down through rope is different from slicing but still represents attributes that are relevant to knives. Strength and toughness is needed but carbides for slicing not so much. 5160 is pretty tough. I'd guess that 5160, for instance at rc 57 won't last as long as needed to complete that test though the failure would be folding rather than chipping of the edge. In that respect the Infi holding it's toughness at rc 60 or higher maybe will be the deciding factor as opposed to what A11 steels do to complete their slicing mega tests using rope like done the ones done by Jim Ankerson and some other people here. They use carbides along with higher hardness for the abrasive wear tests where slicing is done and failure is usually microchipping. Both are impressive feats to me. Jim has a measured sharpness test using a set amount of weight for force applied and he has gone up into the two thousands using his methods. I've always wondered what force was used in the Jerry Busse/Tubor test and how that changed as the test progressed. Any future test would have to include that or it becomes a test of how much force/pain one can give/take. In industry shearing blades go all day and night cutting various plastics and metals but hydraulics doesn't care about little changes that humans can find intolerable.

Different tests completely though both look similar to those not really seeing what they are watching. Both rely on geometry but one needs a lower carbon, lower carbide steel and the other the exact opposite.

The thing I've always liked about Jerry wasn't Infi, or the Sr101 knives but the whole journey from the 80's looking for higher performance and never being satisfied until he found what he wanted. He has tinkered with things even then.

I can mentally picture him at Koncors/Latrobe Specialty steels going through different products looking at compositions on spec sheets and trying to figure out best performance. I read somewhere he even considered maraging steels ( not for long probably). That shows drive that I respect.

The thing that makes Busse knives to me is the effort put into the whole process including making sure no stress risers occur from design issues and from what I read he even checks the steel foe faults using tests such as the Penetrant inspection. When you test steel from your order after delivery and if you lose 10% to inspection you're pretty much out of 10% of your money.

What I don't like about Busse isn't the marketing, the steels used or how they sell knives. That isn't my business. I don't like irrational folks trying to constantly argue if you won't acknowledge the Busse/Infi to be the best performing all around steel made. Loyalty is good but overzealous people that will tolerate no opinion but theirs annoy me. Facts are facts and if a person doesn't like them then that's life. Opinions are subjective things and if one person likes 1085 more than any other steel in the world who am I to argue?

If that person states facts incorrectly than that certainly can be debated.

I guess overzealous fans are what caused Sal G. to post his notorious "Shiny Footprints" statement . I remember that well.

Joe

 

[Ken44]

^ TL;DR all of that, but read the start and ending.
Busse doesn't have overzealous fans. If they did about a 100 of them would've showed up for this thread,lol.

 

[Cobalt]

Joe, I know you like having the last word on things. However, I have seen your type on many forums. When the fans of a certain brand come into post what they feel, your type feels the need to respond to every single post. You can't just say your peace and move on. You have to continue posting in response to others. When they actually have the gall to respond to you, you then call them rabid fans and tell them to get stuffed. You can't take a debate that does not go your way, that much is obvious. The fact that you had to make a long winded post and once again attack the fans of a brand says more about your own insecurity than anything else. If you had left that paragraph out, all would be well, but you had to go there and once again attack the fans of a brand.

I am sure Jerry missed the part you said about him walking around the steel mill and looking for what off the shelf steel he can use. Like he had no hand in it's design. Even when you are praising Busse you are backhanding him in a passive aggressive way.

If you wish to continue on this path in this thread, I am here to further it. If you wish to stop now and let it go, I am fine with that as well. But every time you make any attack on me or any one who defends the brand I will respond. Every insult on this thread was made by you. Remember that.

 

[shqxk]

Busse marketing is just too good... No brands in this world would ever come close on value holding aspect which IMO one of the most importance thing...

INFI steel is one of the better overall steel.

Tough like shock steel.
Edge holding and easy to sharpen like high carbon steel.
Corrosion resistance close to D2.

One thing that I dislike on Busse is the coating... it just not make sense to invent one of the best steel which already has acceptable rust resistance then powder coated them and significantly reduce cutting performance... I know Busse does offer the satin finish but IMO the price different is just too much compare to their base coated blade...

 

[Ankerson]

One thing that Joe brought up that is actually very important and extremely relevant was industrial use of steels. Once we start looking how they are actually used in the industry outside of knives and start to understand what the steels where developed for things start to get clearer.

The actual knife industry is a very small percentage of the overall steel industry, less than 3% overall and that's being positive as it's actually much less than 1% from the information that I have.

So actually doing some research into how some of the steels are actually used in industrial use and what they have been developed for could be enlightening for a lot of people.

For tools that have to cut a lot of material the lower alloy steels aren't used at all, they just aren't and is the fact of the matter due to the down time that would be involved in changing out blades/cutters and the down time that would be required.

When those machines etc. aren't running they aren't making any money so the less downtime the better.

 

[The Mastiff]

Cobalt, you are a strange one. That wasn't meant as an insult in any way. I think Busse is a cool guy and a great knife maker. You are seeing stuff that isn't there.

I actually based that on a paragraph that Jerry wrote about his earlier years and personally I find his relentless search for performance something to admire.

If you can't find the paragraph I'm referring to with some of your own research then ask. I can PM it. I prefer not to post things in public without other peoples consent.

And so, Get stuffed again.

joe

 

[Cobalt]

Busse marketing is just too good... No brands in this world would ever come close on value holding aspect which IMO one of the most importance thing...

INFI steel is one of the better overall steel.

Tough like shock steel.
Edge holding and easy to sharpen like high carbon steel.
Corrosion resistance close to D2.

One thing that I dislike on Busse is the coating.....

I agree.
Actually, I dislike coatings on all knives, except....my benchmade folders. I can't explain why I like coatings on my benchmades and hate them on everything else. That makes no sense. Maybe because my first quality folding knife was a black benchmade AFCK and it has stuck with me ever since. I still have it 20+ years later.

 

[Cobalt]

Cobalt, you are a strange one. That wasn't meant as an insult in any way. I think Busse is a cool guy and a great knife maker. You are seeing stuff that isn't there.

I actually based that on a paragraph that Jerry wrote about his earlier years and personally I find his relentless search for performance something to admire.

If you can't find the paragraph I'm referring to with some of your own research then ask. I can PM it. I prefer not to post things in public without other peoples consent.

And so, Get stuffed again.

joe

Joe, lol, if this was not meant in the way it was written then I misconstrued your paragraph:

What I don't like about Busse isn't the marketing, the steels used or how they sell knives. That isn't my business. I don't like irrational folks trying to constantly argue if you won't acknowledge the Busse/Infi to be the best performing all around steel made. Loyalty is good but overzealous people that will tolerate no opinion but theirs annoy me. Facts are facts and if a person doesn't like them then that's life. Opinions are subjective things and if one person likes 1085 more than any other steel in the world who am I to argue?

Sure seemed like it to me. Maybe you should have deleted that paragraph then if you didn't mean it the way it came off, because I am sure I am not the only one who took it that way. I of course would then delete my paragraph

But since you didn't intend it in the way it was written we are all good and you can go get stuffed as well.

As for his research, yes, I agree. There is no doubt that he did that to get to where he is. I don't think he just went down and saw something he liked on a shelf and got it. I remember when INFI came out and I do remember how many knife makers actually wanted Jerry to provide them with the raw stock. He only provided one blank to one knife maker that I know of. I am sure that he did a lot of research before he ended up with the original formula. I have never seen that combination of metals on any other steel, including the 1% of Cobalt and 0.11% of Nitrogen. Quite unusual when you mix it with 0.5-0.6% of Carbon and 8% of Cr. Along with a bunch of other elements. I have never seen that combination of elements on any steel. At the time the only steel that was even close in composition was modified A8 that Tom Johanning was using in his Tac10-11. That steel had 8% chrome and about the same carbon I think. Can't remember exact numbers. And that mA8 was based of the chipper steel A8. So everyone thought that Jerry must have based his steel off of a chipper line of steels. Since that time I have tried to figure out what line of steels he was searching through, and came up with some alternative industries that use similar composition but I have never been able to find that steel anywhere.