Breaking knives

Hey Chris,

I see your in Fayetteville. There with the 82nd? I served 6 years with the 2/325th. I saw your posts and noticed your comments about your experiences with cutlery and the Military. I'm nothing but a rock headed knuckle dragger, so I'm not that well spoken, all I can relate is to my experiences.

In the line of service I can think of two experiences which were out of the 'Normal' types of uses for a knife. I saved for three months, for a Busse Satin Jack knowing that I was going to be depoloyed sooner or later with 9/11 kicking off. I'm not sure if your famaliar with the knife, but it definately is a do all kind of non flashy knife. Good for general purpose kind of work. I wouldn't classify it as a 'tactical knife' in the least.

Once, in Balad, having been assigned with a HQ scout for a week (Because I was the squad Designated Marksman, and his buddy had to go home for a family emergency...not to mention I volunteered) we were tasked with providing support by fire of men conducting building raids in the block next to us. My partner ran the show and led me to a position that we were supposed to take. Unfortunately, the positions roof was absolutely unaccesible, so we climbed to the second story and found that there were no windows on that side of the building. OK we requested by PRK to move to an alternate position and were told that that too was a no go because of friendly fire considerations. "Provide security of the building and wait till the block is clear" Is what we were told. So we sat. And sat. The clatter of gunfire sounded and me being a E-4 looked to the scout an E-6 like 'oh sh!t'. Fact was we weren't doing our job. We needed to be providing support for those men below us. So, we walked up to the second story and figured, if there ain't a window, we'll make one. He had a folder and me with my Satin jack. So, when the chips were down, I used my knife in a manner which was probably considered by some to be abusive. Fact is I made a firing port and we accomplished our misson. Never fired a round though, but that's besides the point. Was that Busse razor sharp after? Hell no. It was beat up. Still is. It took some considerable sharpening to make it a cutter again. But Concrete block will do that to an edge.

Another not so dramatic experience was my battle buddy forgetting his E-tool at a training exercise, and having to dig a fighting position. The ground was frozen. I used the knife as a pic, he did the scooping. Abuse? You be the judge. Fact is we needed to get that hole dug NOW. Were the proper PCI done? Nope. Were they the proper tools for the job? Nope. Did I have a choice? Nope. Murphy is an interesting guy. He comes at the best moments too.


I'm not advocating everyone carry Battle Mistresses for whittling. Cause I have one, and I don't carry it to the field. I believe though, especially in a light infantry unit, where you only take what you jump (Or maybe in the woods where you'll only carry one knife), that the tools you bring better be the toughest money can buy. So in summation, my belief is that 'Bullet Proof' only equates to VERSITILITY. Usually the choice of the best tool for the job will be yours. When it's not though, you better make sure your tools are up to it.

Not trying to offend anyone. Just relating my experiences.
 
fieldtestornothing,
Been in lots of situations where I had to use what I had, not that I have done all these things, I realize the need for specialized edged tools, SAR, smokejumping, military, police, firefighting, river guide and many others are all a different animal from what we are talking about here.

I am talking about a general purpose woods knife or bushcraft, hunting and fishing that sort of thing. I have had people shooting at me, and your right, I could care less how much the tool cost or what it's original purpose was, if it is all I had and it would dig, it dug.

I am not in 82nd but a small detachment from Fort Detrick, there are only 41 of us here at Bragg. Chris
 
Chris,

Point taken. Your absolutely correct about those additional considerations that you mention.

Frankly, my feeling is kind of like my screen name. I don't believe anybody. I simply have to test something in the field before I'll carry anything. I love Busse's, but I love my mora's too. They are distinctly different animals. I'm only a beginner when it comes to bushcraft compared to many here, but I think your 100% correct in stating that you don't need an expensive knife for bushcraft. A thin bladed knife will certaintly do the job. Certaintly, better at certain jobs than a thick bladed chopper. I am in agreement that the more skill one posses the less he needs to make do. Understand though, that maybe not everyone is on the same level as you. Or maybe they have been forged by their environment, a different set of environments and circumstances than forged you. I see the validity of both arguments.

Frankly, the answer is.

Carry a bullet proof knife!!!!
Carry a thin bladed functional woodcraft knife!!!

Go to the woods for 10 years, come back and tell me what you think.
 
Can a "routine" trip into the woods turn into a "survival" situation?

If it can, are we taught to think "outside the box" when it comes to meeting survival needs?

Is a bandanna a water filter?

Is the polished bottom of a steel cup a mirror?

Is a shard of beer bottle a knife?

Is a stick a shovel?

Is a safety pin a fish hook?

While I have VERY rarely used a knife to do anything but cut, why is it wrong-headed to see a knife as something more than a slicing tool?


The positions being taken by some suggest some sort of standard is being surpassed by a "bullet-proof" knife. Is that a matter of quality, of price, or of dimensions?

If it's a matter of dimensions, just what is, officially, "too much" knife for those advocating the concept of "too much."
 
pict said:
I'm thinkin someone didn't get much paperwork done...
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Good call Mac,
My best friends dad was visiting from Iraq yesterday, he's a contractor, we went out to a local steak house/watering hole last night. Pat's dad kept buying pitchers of Amber Bock so to keep from being rude I kept helping them drink them. So my head was really not in any shape to write NCOERs, or argue pointless arguments on line for that matter. The evals aren't due till the end of next week so I am still in good shape, I have duty tonight till midnight and I have been on this stupid computer all day, no sense stopping now.:o Chris
 
Thomas Linton said:
If it's a matter of dimensions, just what is, officially, "too much" knife for those advocating the concept of "too much."
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I am sure this is aimed at me so I will take a stab at it, as has been mentioned it is mainly a matter of preference and expected use any way, so my opinion is just that, my opinion.

Anyway, I prefer a flat or scandi grind, 4 to 6", knife made of good fairly thin carbon steel, with a handle that is comfortable and profiled with the edge and point positioned to cut efficiently. I do not chop or pry with my knife and carry or make other tools for that purpose, I would rather have tools that do their job well as a tool that does many things OK. The main reason I started this thread in the first place is another thread where people said moras were not sturdy enough for bushcraft and they would not stake their life on one and I was curious as to what they used their knives for that they need to be so tough. That is all there is to it.
 
The animals in my photo earlier on in this post were Australian Brushtailed Opossums (or 'Ewoks' as they have come to be called by our creative buddy in South America.

I just remembered another knife I broke.... A medium-sized Opinel twist-lock. Levering again I think.

Dang this has been a long thread. I'm off to town to trade my various folders and belt knives for a 36" bowie.

Here is a selection of some useful blades. At the top is an old hatchet head that I reshaped and re-handled. The steel is a bit softer than some hatchets, but it is a handy tool nonetheless. Sitting on the handle of that is a well-used Chinese-made knife. The lock is a bit dodgy nowadays, but it has given me some pleasing service at a price of less than US$1. My new Cold Steel Finn Bear is sitting on the golok sheath. Good value for money at US$11....it has performed well so far. The golok is marked "Elwell 1964 KE 18731" along with the little military arrowhead. A good chopper, and the closest thing I am ever likely to own that is combi blade, shovel, and log-off-the-leg lever. Unlike the big bowies etc, it is not pointed...this helps to keep more weight down the end for chopping and more width at the end for digging. It would be hopeless as a weapon compared to a light, sharp knife. Below the golok is a knife I made from a saw blade. It is very nice, but frankly my Mora and Finn Bear are lighter knives so I'm more likely to use them instead (and it doesn't matter so much if I lose them). The two bladed pocketknife was my uncles...he used to cut the lambs tails off with it at the farm...now I'd use it for grafting, digging out splinters and other tasks needing a very sharp thin edge. Made in Solingen...."55 HY Kaufmann and Sons" The little knife with the white plastic handle was ground from a bit of bandsaw blade. I use this alot on the trapline for cutting twigs, cutting bait ties, spreading lure and skinning possums. It slips nicely into the plastic tube sheath and is held securely. The tube is easy to keep clean. The cord 'belt' is quick and convenient with a steel hook gripping an eye. The hook is attached to a cord which attaches to the main belt cord with a prusik knot loop....this quickly slides along for adjustment then grips tightly.
HandyBlades.jpg


I believe it is a good idea to carry a small sharp knife for bushcraft and camp chores....and if there is likely to be a need for a chopper or a lever then an additional tool for these purposes should be available. A decent axe, or even a hatchet, in the hands of a skilled and motivated user, takes a lot of beating as a chopping tool.
 
runningboar said:
I am sure this is aimed at me so I will take a stab at it, as has been mentioned it is mainly a matter of preference and expected use any way, so my opinion is just that, my opinion.

Anyway, I prefer a flat or scandi grind, 4 to 6", knife made of good fairly thin carbon steel, with a handle that is comfortable and profiled with the edge and point positioned to cut efficiently. I do not chop or pry with my knife and carry or make other tools for that purpose, I would rather have tools that do their job well as a tool that does many things OK. The main reason I started this thread in the first place is another thread where people said moras were not sturdy enough for bushcraft and they would not stake their life on one and I was curious as to what they used their knives for that they need to be so tough. That is all there is to it.
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The "big" (whatever that means) vs. "small (ditto) debate has been going on as long as I've been interested in knives (try at least fifty years).

My questions are aimed at anyone who can answer them.

We know what you like. I await an answer to my question. What's "too much" knife? Anything longer or wider or thicker than you like?

I carry a Mora 2000 on car campouts and many short hikes clse to home. Great cutting tool. Come the backpacker or a hike in wilder country, and the knife goes to 3/26 x 4" because, clumsy me 230 lb. me, I don't want to try to baton with the MORA if it came to that. Is that "too much" knife? It cuts as well as the MORA -- except in thick stuff where the thin MORA shines. So, just as good for fuzz sticks, traps, even (OMG!) spoons.

"the right tool" How many pounds of tools would be "too much" if you, vs. a vehicle or pack animal, has to carry it? Backpacking, I am down to the 4" knife, a folding prunning saw, and a multi-tool or SAK -- unless I know I need more. I think that's enough where I go and with what I know AND the age I've reached.

And, to summarize my first few questions, what about "adapt, improvise, overcome" as a survival approach?
 
ilbruche said:
Well said, finally some logic on this thread.

I have a lot of large boulders near my house, I'd love to have someone come over and try to pry themselves out from under one with whatever knife they choose. :D
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Finally some logic? Other than the Gilligan side-debate, I think I've been the voice of reason through all this. That hurts, man.
By the way, Thundarr will be winging his way to you by Friday...sorry it's taken so long...been busy beyond belief.
 
Thomas Linton said:
The "big" (whatever that means) vs. "small (ditto" debate has been going on as long as I've been interested in knives (try at least fifty years).

My questions are aimed at anyone who can answer them.

We know what you like. I await an answer to my question. What's "too much" knife? Anything longer or wider or thicker than you like?

I carry a Mora 2000 on car campouts and many short hikes clse to home. Great cutting tool. Come the backpacker or a hike in wilder country, and the knife goes to 3/26 x 4" because, clumsy me 230 lb. me, I don't want to try to baton with the MORA if it came to that. Is that "too much" knife? It cuts as well as the MORA -- except in thick stuff where the thin MORA shines. So, just as good for fuzz sticks, traps, even (OMG!) spoons.

"the right tool" How many pounds of tools would be "too much" if you, vs. a vehicle or pack animal, has to carry it? Backpacking, I am down to the 4" knife, a folding prunning saw, and a multi-tool or SAK -- unless I know I need more. I think that's enough where I go and with what I know AND the age I've reached.

And, to summarize my first few questions, what about "adapt, improvise, overcome" as a survival approach?
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Your asking a lot of questions I just can't answer, if anyone can. What's too much knife? What do you want it to do? I want mine to cut and slice, if you expect it to chop or pry you will look for something different. Some of my favorites are an old german eye sodbuster I carry a lot, a leatherman wave, various models of schrades, a vic trekker, 14" tramontina, and recently a RAT 3, all of these perform well for what I use them for and I really wouldn't worry if I got stranded with any of them besides the machete, although in a pinch I could probably get by with it it is really kind of specific in what it does well. Knives I have owned I didn't like, USAF pilot's knife, marine kabar, combo edge nimravus, benchmade tanto automatic which was issued and was the most expensive worthless knife I have ever owned.

How many tools am I willing to carry? My leatherman, a schrade 152 or 13, or my rat 3 maybe a folding saw or my machete, any combination of 3 is not too heavy for me to carry. You mentioned vehicle, then the sky is the limit and I have a fairly well stocked tool kit in my jeep including an entrenching tool and 18" machete.

Adapting and improvising is the core of a survival mindset and I really don't know what you are asking about it. In a survival situation would I use my knife for a purpose that it was not intended, you better believe it. But what exactly would that be and how much should I compromise the cutting ability of my knife to try to cover that eventuality, I really don't know. Chris
 
runningboar said:
Your asking a lot of questions I just can't answer, if anyone can. What's too much knife? What do you want it to do? I want mine to cut and slice, if you expect it to chop or pry you will look for something different.......

Adapting and improvising is the core of a survival mindset and I really don't know what you are asking about it. In a survival situation would I use my knife for a purpose that it was not intended, you better believe it. But what exactly would that be and how much should I compromise the cutting ability of my knife to try to cover that eventuality, I really don't know. Chris
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Now you've gone all conciliatory on us Chris :) Good luck on that paper work!
 
Sure. "Good" for what tasks? "Good" for whom?

"Compromise" Sure. As noted above, it's often about compromise. But I compromise little -- nothing that counts - in going from a 4" MORA 2000 to a Bark River Aurora. If the cheese slices are a little wedgy, I won't complain.

You seemed to be precluding any other use but cutting/slicing as "BS." Perhaps I misunderstood.

I just don't have the confidence that the Great God Murphy will restrict tasks in the deep woods to slicing. As someone said, versatility. A stouter knife (Still don't know if mine is "too much.") gives me two methods of splitting wood (the other being the saw half through and wack method) and lets me harvest poles faster to build a shelter than if I was limited to my MORA 2000.

Just my view and experience.
 
kgd said:
Now you've gone all conciliatory on us Chris :) Good luck on that paper work!
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Never meant to insinuate I had all the answers, that is why I asked the question in the first place. Some people told me my experiences were different from theirs and that shaped my decisions, which is true for everyone, however I would like to know what situations shaped theirs. Chris
 
Thomas Linton said:
I just don't have the confidence that the Great God Murphy will restrict tasks in the deep woods to slicing. As someone said, versatility. A stouter knife (Still don't know if mine is "too much.") .
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Do you really care if I tell you it is? Will you rush out and buy a RAT 3 because that is what I like right now? Still I would like to know those situations that you think you will need the stouter knife, dig through ice to get water? Pry boulders? Chop through bones? What are those tasks not restricted to slicing? Chris
 
runningboar said:
...Some people told me my experiences were different from theirs and that shaped my decisions, which is true for everyone, however I would like to know what situations shaped theirs. Chris
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Once during my impressionable youth I got "slapped nekked" under extreme circumstances far from any "SAR", and had to E&E posthaste with nothing but a pair of tin plates around my neck. It was an experience I've never forgotten.

What I learned from that was that betting your life on...a knife, a gun, a compass, a tool of choice is a very poor idea. Better to acquire skills that can't be taken from you. After that, my pack weighed half as much.

You like to buy and carry toys? Enjoy. I like toys too. I have literally hundreds of knives. But I don't let my survival depend upon them.

I prefer to carry a 3 1/2" to 5 1/2" fixed blade when afield. That's just me. They work for what I expect of a knife. I know their limits and strong points and I don't exceed them. This is an interesting topic though.

Codger
 
Codger_64 said:
Once during my impressionable youth I got "slapped nekked" under extreme circumstances far from any "SAR", and had to E&E posthaste with nothing but a pair of tin plates around my neck. It was an experience I've never forgotten.
Codger
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SERE training was indeed a bitch, not sure if yours was training though. Chris
 
You know, I have no clue where this thread is going, but it's certainly going somewhere.


I have no clue what the next person likes compared to me, thats obvious they can choose what ever they please. But one thing I hope is unanimus is that skill and location are key. Telling me I dont need an axe but a large knife means nothing, I've used an axe longer then a knife and I can tell you one thing, I would much rather be stuck with just an axe then some 10" bowie blade, BUT that is decided on the level of knowledge I have and my surroundings.
Arguing over this subject is just going to lead to anything but good, we all know what we want, and we should be respecting that. Telling each other our choices aren't right is leading nowhere, and fast.
 
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