Breaking knives

[runningboar]

2 blades snapped litterally in half one by limbing a dead frozen tree for firewood in winter. The other shattered into three pieces trying to split a frozen log covered in ice for a desperately needed fire.

Another blade broke an inch off the tip making it near useless for the job of chipping through 8 inches of ice to access water on a frozen lake all the whille trying to heat water for hot jello and keeping a hypothermic subject form exiting stage left.

I have been thinking about this, if people's lives are on the line I think it is pretty important that you invest in a MSR wisperlite and a good quality axe and a folding saw. I would hate to think someone's loved one died because you didn't have the proper equipment, if my thinking is out of line here I admit I know next to nothing about SAR, but it seems to make sense to me not to depend only on a knife. Chris

 

[task force k]

I'm reminded of the guy that carries a .22 and tells everyone else that if they carry something larger, they just "don't get it."

We eventually find out that the guy only uses his .22 for paper targets or tin cans.....

.

To each his own but I've got a .22 revolver in my waistband right now that's never failed to feed me and an AG Russell Woodswalker in my back pocket that's never failed to clean what I eat or strike a light on the firesteel. Hey, I love my "big boy" guns and larger knives (I've also got my F-1 on my hip, just for the record), too, but this combo has done the job so far. I get it...I just don't feel the need to carry anything bigger every day. A .22 is definitely not an optimal defense round but a .45 is a bit too much medicine for squirrel, dove or rabbit. Maybe my days of going into harm's way are past but I just find myself shooting more small game than "bad guys".

 

[Fonly]

heh, I've said it a few times, theirs a reason we evolved from knives to axe's and axe's to saws.Their are certain tools for certain jobs. Using a tool not made for that job, sooner or later it will break.

 

[skammer]

David,
So far the the reasons people have used to try to justify themselves have been bullshit, including yours.

Chris,

I urge you to look around a SAR colleague's site to learn more about hard use blades and what they are used for, before calling it all BS.

A blade is a primary tool to keep you beathing and should be able to survive torture.

http://riverside-graphics.net/Skills/RWfire.html
http://riverside-graphics.net/SARgear.html

Skam

 

[David E]

My point was that sometimes, people use ONLY their own experiences to dictate/decide what everyone ELSE should use. Ignoring, of course, everyone else's experiences and needs.

ASSumptions must be made on the part of the "all knowing" person. When it comes to guns, that any gun will do for defense, as no one wants to be shot with anything, even a .22

When it comes to knives, they must ASSume that a "bulletproof" knife is never anything more than a large sharpened prybar, not good for general knife/cutting chores. While next to useless knives exist, so, too, do the "bulletproof" knives that cut very well and are of a good all around size. But acknowledgement of these facts would undermine their 'argument,' so they are ignored.



.

 

[skammer]

heh, I've said it a few times, theirs a reason we evolved from knives to axe's and axe's to saws.Their are certain tools for certain jobs. Using a tool not made for that job, sooner or later it will break.

There are tools for jobs. I cant haul them all 15 miles into nowhere on SAR missions so I choose the most utilitarian. A large tough blade.

Skam

 

[David E]

Skam,

Obviously, you're making too much sense !

Now, YOUR knife.........I'm curious about !

What did you choose?

.

 

[runningboar]

Chris,

I urge you to look around a SAR colleague's site to learn more about hard use blades and what they are used for, before calling it all BS.

A blade is a primary tool to keep you beathing and should be able to survive torture.

http://riverside-graphics.net/Skills/RWfire.html
http://riverside-graphics.net/SARgear.html

Skam

First I agreed that your knife makes a lot of sense for SAR so I am not sure what I said was BS.

Second- fire in the rain in 25 minutes, awfully fortuitous that your friend "found" that fatwood stump when he needed it. I would suggest carrying some good tender and not depend on good fortune when you are trying to save peoples lives.

Third- Believe it or not doing what I do for a living I have had quite a bit of training. If you don't carry a stove and pot, a casualty blanket or two, a small axe and a folding saw you might want to think about it.

 

[runningboar]

My point was that sometimes, people use ONLY their own experiences to dictate/decide what everyone ELSE should use. Ignoring, of course, everyone else's experiences and needs.

ASSumptions must be made on the part of the "all knowing" person. When it comes to guns, that any gun will do for defense, as no one wants to be shot with anything, even a .22

When it comes to knives, they must ASSume that a "bulletproof" knife is never anything more than a large sharpened prybar, not good for general knife/cutting chores. While next to useless knives exist, so, too, do the "bulletproof" knives that cut very well and are of a good all around size. But acknowledgement of these facts would undermine their 'argument,' so they are ignored.



.

I never questioned that such a knife exists, I merely asked what you need it for. I did say that when someone mentions a bulletproof knife the first thing that comes into my mind is cutting ability has probably been sacrificed. Chris

 

[skammer]

Skam,


What did you choose?

.

PM sent.

Skam

 

[skammer]

First I agreed that your knife makes a lot of sense for SAR so I am not sure what I said was BS.

Second- fire in the rain in 25 minutes, awfully fortuitous that your friend "found" that fatwood stump when he needed it. I would suggest carrying some good tender and not depend on good fortune when you are trying to save peoples lives.

Third- Believe it or not doing what I do for a living I have had quite a bit of training. If you don't carry a stove and pot, a casualty blanket or two, a small axe and a folding saw you might won't to think about it.

Chris,

Thanks for agreeing on one point at least haha.

That said I will clarify some things. Fatwood in the northeast is like moss it is everywhere. The reason they use it is it burns fast and hot under any condition producing a good fire for heat fast. We do carry small amounts of tinder but large hunks of fatwood burns better for SAR pyro's. A small stove and pot (which I do carry) does not keep you warm in an emergency. The bigger the fire the better within reason.

I sometimes carry a folding saw but it is only good for some tasks and takes too long on small wood. I can limb a tree out in seconds with a large blade. I dont carry an axe or hatchet as I cant cut with it doing other chores and a large blade is nearly as good chopping the stuff I need to. Besides its too many pieces of gear and too heavy. I carry enough already.

When I teach courses and students see what a large blade can do and how quick it can do it they are 100% sold. I do talk about blade quality and after they see me pound on mine they understand the importance. Sure a small blade can perform some as well but not as fast and not as many tasks.

Hope that explains some things.

Skam

 

[runningboar]

Chris,

Thanks for agreeing on one point at least haha.

That said I will clarify some things. Fatwood in the northeast is like moss it is everywhere. The reason they use it is it burns fast and hot under any condition producing a good fire for heat fast. We do carry small amounts of tinder but large hunks of fatwood burns better for SAR pyro's. A small stove and pot (which I do carry) does not keep you warm in an emergency. The bigger the fire the better within reason.

I sometimes carry a folding saw but it is only good for some tasks and takes too long on small wood. I can limb a tree out in seconds with a large blade. I dont carry an axe or hatchet as I cant cut with it doing other chores and a large blade is nearly as good chopping the stuff I need to. Besides its too many pieces of gear and too heavy. I carry enough already.

When I teach courses and students see what a large blade can do and how quick it can do it they are 100% sold. I do talk about blade quality and after they see me pound on mine they understand the importance. Sure a small blade can perform some as well but not as fast and not as many tasks.

Hope that explains some things.

Skam

I really never doubted your need for one, I like my m4 but I wouldn't suggest it for a hunting rifle. I wasn't talking about the stove for warmth but to get hot liquids into casualties fast. Specialized tools for specialized jobs, this whole thread started when I read someone say that a mora is cheap and nowhere near tough enough for a general purpose woods knife, I beg to differ and wanted to know what people do to need such tough knives. Chris

I understand that specialized tools are requried for different jobs, military, police, SAR, that's you skammer, however, here I am talking woodcraft and I do not recognize the use of sharpened pry bars in the woods. Not only do I not recognize them I think they are worthless weight in 99% of all woods work, there are much better tools for wilderness trekking, or for that matter general utility IMO.

You edited to quote my BS comment so I thought I would throw this one at you, I made this quote on page 5 but lots of people seem to have skipped over it.

 

[Fonly]

There are tools for jobs. I cant haul them all 15 miles into nowhere on SAR missions so I choose the most utilitarian. A large tough blade.

Skam

A large knife made for that heavy of work is going to weigh the same as a hatchet, whats the diffrence.:jerkit:

Plus not taking the right tools is going to be your down fall not mine, make the decisions you wish.

 

[Any Cal.]

After reading through all this, here is the point. EVERYTHING IS A COMPROMISE. I do not doubt that a bulletproof knife can do many things. It also compromises in many areas. Here are a few criteria for a knife.

Weight
Size
Cutting ability
Strength
Edge holding
Ease of use for various tasks

Regardless of the price of the knife, there will be compromises made in every area for gains in another. A "chopper" HAS to weigh more, or else HAS to be longer. It is foolish to say that someone has no sense because they do not wish to compromise on weight. For a knife to cut like a hatchet, it needs to weigh what a hatchet does, or be much longer. That knife compromises it's size, weight, and ease of use in some tasks in order to gain chopping ability.

Many times, two tools can effectively do multiple jobs better than a single tool made to do those jobs. A light knife paired w/ a hatchet/saw/machete will do many jobs much better than an "all in one" tool. This can often come w/ a weight savings as well.

If I knew I would need a prying instrument, or even thought I might, it would for sure not be a knife. If I put something of an edge on one side of a prybar, I would have a prying tool, digging tool, batonning tool, pot hook, etc. And, it would do every one of those jobs better than a large knife. Paired w/ a small, light knife, I would have no troubles. For all these gains, my compromise would be chopping ability.

Pick the compromises you are willing to accept, and get the gains you want.
For me size, weight, and ease of use matter greatly.

If you let testosterone make your choices for you, you stand a greater chance of hurting yourself or hindering your performance when you actually need the tool.

Edited to add: When I say put an edge on a prybar, I mean a small dull bevel, not turning it into a knife.

 

[David E]

I never questioned that such a knife exists, I merely asked what you need it for. Chris

For all the things YOU need a knife for......

except with mine, I won't have to worry if it'll break if by circumstance I have to use the knife for things other than cutting soft material.



.

 

[David E]

A large knife made for that heavy of work is going to weigh the same as a hatchet, whats the diffrence.

Um............versatility comes to mind........

.

 

[Fonly]

Um............versatility comes to mind........

.

um........... so what your only going to have a large knife, no sak, neck knives, small fixed.

Take a medium fixed and a saw. If you need a chopper than take a large knife or hatchet, dont half ass your self, get the tools for the job.

come on.

 

[runningboar]

Um............versatility comes to mind........

.

David, dude give it up, what can a big knife do that a hatchet and a small knife can't do better, I swear to everything that is right if you can come up with something I will acknowledge it.

 

[runningboar]

For all the things YOU need a knife for......

except with mine, I won't have to worry if it'll break if by circumstance I have to use the knife for things other than cutting soft material.



.

I guess I will have to take my chances, it's tough, but I feel relatively confident no boulders will fall on me sealing my fate because my knife is to small to pry it off.:yawn:

 

[ilbruche]

After reading through all this, here is the point. EVERYTHING IS A COMPROMISE. I do not doubt that a bulletproof knife can do many things. It also compromises in many areas. Here are a few criteria for a knife.

Weight
Size
Cutting ability
Strength
Edge holding
Ease of use for various tasks

Regardless of the price of the knife, there will be compromises made in every area for gains in another. A "chopper" HAS to weigh more, or else HAS to be longer. It is foolish to say that someone has no sense because they do not wish to compromise on weight. For a knife to cut like a hatchet, it needs to weigh what a hatchet does, or be much longer. That knife compromises it's size, weight, and ease of use in some tasks in order to gain chopping ability.

Many times, two tools can effectively do multiple jobs better than a single tool made to do those jobs. A light knife paired w/ a hatchet/saw/machete will do many jobs much better than an "all in one" tool. This can often come w/ a weight savings as well.

If I knew I would need a prying instrument, or even thought I might, it would for sure not be a knife. If I put something of an edge on one side of a prybar, I would have a prying tool, digging tool, batonning tool, pot hook, etc. And, it would do every one of those jobs better than a large knife. Paired w/ a small, light knife, I would have no troubles. For all these gains, my compromise would be chopping ability.

Pick the compromises you are willing to accept, and get the gains you want.
For me size, weight, and ease of use matter greatly.

If you let testosterone make your choices for you, you stand a greater chance of hurting yourself or hindering your performance when you actually need the tool.

Edited to add: When I say put an edge on a prybar, I mean a small dull bevel, not turning it into a knife.

Well said, finally some logic on this thread.

I have a lot of large boulders near my house, I'd love to have someone come over and try to pry themselves out from under one with whatever knife they choose.