Bring back Cliff

[Bastid]

Not an opinion. Just a fact.

 

[OilMan]

In case you've forgotten, facts are things that can be proven, not a bunch of innuendo, inferences, opinions, and such.

 

[Bastid]

Thanks Oilman, but I am quite familiar with what a fact is. I have made a good living for over 30 years applying logic and fact each day.


Don't have to prove these facts. The threads are there for everyone to read and comprehend. Can't help you with that, but there are courses you can take.

 

[OilMan]

Thanks Oilman, but I am quite familiar with what a fact is.


Don't have to prove these facts. The threads are there for everyone to read and comprehend. Can't help you with that, but there are courses you can take.

And I appologize for only quoting 2 of the 3 or more posts you wrote. You must have still been changing things while I was typing.

We had a member who would call people liars and hypersters on subjects he had no experice with..

To be clear, no physical experience with. He was quite knowledgable in what he talked about. And.. he was very blunt, if he thought you were not telling the truth yes he would tell you about it. Bluntly.

The same member would make up things pitting one maker against another with lies and walk away from the thread when he was caught with his pants down..

Actually, he would quote, or paraphrase if needed, information from two contradictory sources. Can two opposing theories both be correct? Possibly, but not often. And he had to say where the info came from or everyone would have double jumped down his throat. You can't have it both ways. Please point out specifically what was made up. Two or so examples will suffice.

The same member then bashed this forum and it's owner..

That is fairly true. Should he be banned forever for it? That is debatable.

Don't have to proove these facts. The thread are there for everyone to read.

Again, I think you're confusing 'fact' for 'opinion' but I also believe everyone should make up their own minds about the issue based on what was really said as opposed to what is implied after the spin doctors get done with it. That's why the specific examples would really shine.

 

[Ken C.]

Holy crap, Oilman! Cliff is gone.

Get over it!!!

This place is a lot better off without him. If you are so infatuated with him maybe you should start the Cliff Stamp fan club and insult makers, argue with everyone, and break knives in his honor once a month on a Tuesday.

 

[richard j]

cliff is gone, there are more people here who are glad that he is gone than not. lets leave it at that. the guy wasnt a paying member here and he chased away paying members that were contributing more to the forums than cliff ever could.

 

[OilMan]

cliff is gone, there are more people here who are glad that he is gone than not.

Another opinion from one of the same 20 or so guys does not make something a fact. Why would anyone want to defend Cliff when they see that the same 20 or so very vocal people will commence with the smack down if they say anything good about him? Including Mods. Doesn't quite seem like a good place to have a differing opinion now does it?

 

[richard j]

oilman, i would rather have "knifemakers" as members to a "knife forum" to answer questions about knives than someone who knows nothing about making a knife other than maybe reading about it like cliff has done. its kind of like free aol, its a no brainer

 

[HoB]

If you want a good blade, I suggest you go with a (New Graham) pharmacist rather than a physicist.

You know, I might have gone with the same pharmacist for my knife related needs....now isn't that a coincidence .

Maybe I should mention that I am a physicist and chemist/material scientist myself (and have been lucky enough to publish a paper here and there as well. Nothing steel related I hasten to add. Material science is a wide field.)....and my financee is a pharmacist (I am trying to get her to sell knives too, but so far no luck ). Once I have more time and space I think I am going to buy a file set and some steel and will try my hand at knifemaking myself, till then I'd rather trust a professional....meaning a bladesmith/knifemaker .

STR: Thanks for the vote of confidence, that was very kind of you to say, but the forums I hang out in the most are already very well moderated, they hardly need me.

 

[OwenM]

To be clear, no physical experience with. He was quite knowledgable in what he talked about. And.. he was very blunt, if he thought you were not telling the truth yes he would tell you about it. Bluntly.

I'll give you blunt.
You are clueless. What these guys are telling you about knifemakers not wanting to deal with Cliff's BS is a fact. And don't think that his name isn't well known among them-in a very negative sense. I've been aware of this personally for well over 5 years.
As far as his participation here, over the last couple of years Cliff has become more and more blatant about presenting figments of his imagination as fact. He used to be sincere(IMO), and however misguided some of his stuff may have been, he provided a wealth of GOOD info. I've exchanged emails with Cliff, bought my EdgePro Apex from him, even sent him a knife when he wanted to compare handforged 52100 to that in a factory knife.
That was then.
That changed. He lies. Lies constantly, and attacks anyone who rebuts his lies. What's sad is that if you'd been around here long enough, you'd see that some of the people and makers that Cliff now ridicules are the same ones
that he was asking questions of regarding steels, blade and edge geometry, etc. just a few short years ago.

Maybe the industry-wide acceptance of S30V finally drove him nuts, since he's been crusading against it since before a knife was ever made in it, presenting imaginary facts, and more recently making up outright lies about it.
I'm not sad that Cliff was banned, but I'm sad that his contributions here degraded to the point that he required banning.

 

[OilMan]

oilman, i would rather have "knifemakers" as members to a "knife forum" to answer questions about knives than someone who knows nothing about making a knife other than maybe reading about it like cliff has done. its kind of like free aol, its a no brainer

All depends on what your definition of knifemaker is. And I could have swore that Cliff has made a knife or two, but I may be wrong. Unlike all the haters here. So does that now make him qualified in your mind to answer questions or does he have to make a certain number of knives before that happens?

I kinda figured you for an aol user.

 

[RecoilJunkie]

All depends on what your definition of knifemaker is. And I could have swore that Cliff has made a knife or two, but I may be wrong. Unlike all the haters here. So does that now make him qualified in your mind to answer questions or does he have to make a certain number of knives before that happens?

I kinda figured you for an aol user.

Sad to see someone has picked up the Cliff Stamp cloak of tactless smug ambiguity so quickly.

The problem with offering facts as to someone's character is that any information you get will be emotional opinions. Your argument is flawed from the outset.

Start a Cliff Stamp memorial forum and be buttsore about it over there.

 

[richard j]

oilman, for your information, i hate aol (what i said was an inside joke) and happen to have dsl. i asked cliff if he had ever made a knife. he never answered so i take it that he never has. i have been told that he never has either.

 

[STR]

Cliff made at least one knife that I recall him posting a picture of a long while back. It was prmitive but functional.

Oilman we all feel for your loss and the obvious regret you have that Cliff is gone. It won't do much good to show you the facts as we see them, even the black and white ones because you can only see one side of the coin right now anyway. After things settle and you can once again look at it objectively maybe then you'll start to realize that someone who appears to be dressed in all the right attire to be the consumate professional with all the credentials was nothing more than a snake charmer underneath. Brainwashing takes time to recover from and you got pretty well sucked into the gospel of Cliff. I'll forgive you for that but if you are that uncomfortable here with not being able to express your opinions no one is forcing you to hang around.

Cliff did not work closely with any steel makers, metallurgists or bladesmiths, and to the best ability of other PHDs none I asked to search ISI and Phy.Rev letters could ever find his so called published papers on cutlery. Ask anyone at crucible or Sandvik if they have him on their consult registry. Oh, they'll know who you are talking about yes, but you won't find it to be because of positive reasons or because they use him to improve or add to what they do. I'll leave you to decide why and sift those facts for yourself. Many of the people that Cliff name dropped repeatedly are consulted by them though and you will find that Fowler, Bos, Cashen and others are all familar to them and spoke highly of as authorities with all the right credentials and experience. These gentleman are due proper respect. You would place Cliff in their league? Please. Its not even close. Not by a long shot.

STR

 

[Jeff Clark]

Here's my experience with Cliff and S30V. I mentioned on a forum that I would like to try sharpening a knife with that alloy. He sent me his Spyderco Military from Canada at his expense. He also sent along some of the thread that he uses in his sharpness testing. He let me keep the thing for the better part of the year until he had some other comparisons to run.

My experience was that it did not take as fine an edge as BG42. This came from my own shaving tests cross-referenced to Cliff's thread. My impression as a consumer is that BG42 is a better alloy for me. Maybe my priorities in steel performance do not completely align with what knife manufacturers consider a superior steel. Cliff didn't tell me what to expect from S30V, he just gave me a chance to try it.

 

[OilMan]

Cliff made at least one knife that I recall him posting a picture of a long while back. It was prmitive but functional.

Oilman we all feel for your loss and the obvious regret you have that Cliff is gone. It won't do much good to show you the facts as we see them, even the black and white ones because you can only see one side of the coin right now anyway. After things settle and you can once again look at it objectively maybe then you'll start to realize that someone who appears to be dressed in all the right attire to be the consumate professional with all the credentials was nothing more than a snake charmer underneath. Brainwashing takes time to recover from and you got pretty well sucked into the gospel of Cliff. I'll forgive you for that but if you are that uncomfortable here with not being able to express your opinions no one is forcing you to hang around. STR

Thank you for forgiving me for what you say I feel. Perhaps it would be more genuine if I actually felt that way but hey, putting words in peoples mouths and then trying to take them to task for it seems to be what a very small amount of posters here excel at. You talking to me about objectivity is a joke. I am at least willing to hear the other side and view the opposing viewpoints linked examples to make my OWN decisions. Well, the forthcoming examples anyway. Hmmmm.

And who said I was leaving? Or did I supposedly say it? You're gonna have to let me know if it was supposedly me so I can keep up with you.

ps. and the facts aren't "as we see them", they are supposedly facts after all. Right?

 

[Vivi]

Thanks for the respone STR. I think it's safe to say we've both established a while ago what we each think of this, and I don't really have anything else to add myself.

 

[yablanowitz]

And so, Cliff lives on. His immortality assured through followers who simply didn't find him as offensive as some of us did. Even if he was twice as smart as Einstein and had been making seven perfect knives a day for fifty years, I would still have found the few posts of his I read before placing him on ignore to ill considered at best.

I will not miss him.

 

[OldPhysics]

There ya go. Works for me Esav. I know my safe is plastered with those bandaid containers!

STR

Mine, too!

So I guess at least one "BF Physicist" is already taking this advice...

Now -- the next time you need some top-quality III-V or II-VI compounds, I strongly suggest you skip right by the knifemakers and even the pharmacist and come to us Solid State Physicists!

 

[STR]

Yeah fine. You believe what you want guys. I found personally that the deeper you dug with Cliff the less he looked legit. If you found otherwise good for you.

As for the rest of your comments. I was trying to be nice by allowing you the benefit of the doubt when I was saying 'facts as we see them' so as to let you know I realize there is an interpretation involved that may or may not be accurate. If you stop to think about it this is true in everything regarding perception, and yes even in science and so called facts. I believe it was you that pointed that out about some things being known facts in the past that are held to be just dead wrong today.

I gave Cliff every opportunity to show me he was above board and legitimate and he failed to prove it. Published papers don't count on the 'cutleryscience' web site of his own making. I'm talking about scientific journals and that is the inference he made when he said he wrote published papers on it where he was held to strict standards and guidelines. When other scientists probed and even went so far as to ask him about this when they were unable to find these papers Cliff ducked for cover and ran off.

In other words if we follow that old addage that actions speak louder than words it appears to be something other than a true statement by Cliff the harder you look at it. Ironic considering it was Cliff calling others liars here. Kind of reminds me of another story about Somalia and someone else calling a true war hero a fraud when it appeared once again to be the pot calling the kettle black.

Edit to add: If you do a search for 'retained austenite' you find a ton of material by a large number of people. They all basically say the same thing. It falls within reason that if someone (Cliff) contends something contrary to other theories that the article or published paper would stand out and yet it can't even be found. Why is that? I can't say. It stands out as suspicious though.

I don't want controversy with you guys or anyone in this discussion. In fact I rather enjoy most all of you personally but this has gone on long enough for me. I bid you adieu on this one. Good luck making yourselves feel better though. And I mean that sincerely.

STR