Bring back Cliff

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Someone asked how to get a view of Cliff's activities without sifting through 17,000 posts. He has his own website where you can see the volume of effort that he put into studying knives over the years. When you see all the effort that he put in you can see how he might think that he knew something.

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/reviews.html

As for knives that he liked, he has been accused of being a shill for Busse Combat knives because they are extremely tough (made from that proprietary INFI alloy). Part of Cliff's bent is a focus on chopping things. Because of that he likes rather simple tough steels and will point out the failings of anything that doesn't make a good ax. Lately he has found some simple stainless steels that seem more ductile than others. He likes 12C27 and 13C26, but he has found ways to insult the people who use them. He always wants to take these simple tough steels, like 1095, and see what you can do if you jack up the hardness.
 
i just read through some of the d2 posts and its nice to not see posts that fill the whole screen and say absolutely nothing. (and everybody's getting along too :D ):thumbup:
 
It is nice to be able to be candid without having every last word scrutinized to death isn't it?

Huugh, you are entitled to feel and think any way you want to. If you want to take lessons on how to do something from someone that only learned what they know in books and from reading internet forum information with little or no practical experience in it themselves feel free.

I will just add that while it may be true that someone with a lot of book smarts can tell you specs and ideals to shoot for when it comes to really knowing, and I mean really knowing what he or she is talking about fully you have to be able to combine that with your own experiences doing it. At least that is how I feel about it. For example. Would you go to a dentist to let him pull your tooth if all he ever did was learn in books but had never done it?

When you go to dental school you learn in books and then you learn in patients mouths how to do what you learned about in the books and then you do it again, and again and again. When you learn knife making, steels, heat treating, anything about this craft we all have in common you learn by reading yes, but you can watch all the videos and read all the books on hollow grinding or convex grinding or anything else until your brain is full and you are not going to just walk right up to the grinder and whip out a perfect blade if you've never been there before. That comes from OJT my friend. Not from books.

STR
 
well put str.:thumbup: (i was thinking the same thing today but your version is much better:D).
 
I am not from California .. I am an East Coast hood rat that relocated to the midwest. I know that sometimes I sound like a granola-crunching, sandal-wearing Berkley undergrad. Thanks Mom :)

Sorry for bringing up the whole topic. I spoke too soon as a newbie without any understanding the entire history, social dynamic and community here. I think it was a knee-jerk reaction developed from years of reading, the WELL, Solzhenitsyn and DC's Justice League of America comics.


After researching his posts and others it came down to the fact that Cliff forgot the basic tenet of the intarweb..."You own your own words"

Back to reading various posts on how to fritter away my disposable income.
 
tomcrx said:
Sorry for bringing up the whole topic. I spoke too soon as a newbie without any understanding the entire history, social dynamic and community here. I think it was a knee-jerk reaction developed from years of reading, the WELL, Solzhenitsyn and DC's Justice League of America comics.

After researching his posts and others it came down to the fact that Cliff forgot the basic tenet of the intarweb..."You own your own words"
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I will agree with that.:thumbup:

tomcrx said:
Back to reading various posts on how to fritter away my disposable income.
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Now quick, go to the custom knife forums and order some, I guarantee you will never have any more disposable income.:D:D:D:D:D
 
STR said:
It is nice to be able to be candid without having every last word scrutinized to death isn't it?

Huugh, you are entitled to feel and think any way you want to. If you want to take lessons on how to do something from someone that only learned what they know in books and from reading internet forum information with little or no practical experience in it themselves feel free.

I will just add that while it may be true that someone with a lot of book smarts can tell you specs and ideals to shoot for when it comes to really knowing, and I mean really knowing what he or she is talking about fully you have to be able to combine that with your own experiences doing it. At least that is how I feel about it. For example. Would you go to a dentist to let him pull your tooth if all he ever did was learn in books but had never done it?
When you go to dental school you learn in books and then you learn in patients mouths how to do what you learned about in the books and then you do it again, and again and again. When you learn knife making, steels, heat treating, anything about this craft we all have in common you learn by reading yes, but you can watch all the videos and read all the books on hollow grinding or convex grinding or anything else until your brain is full and you are not going to just walk right up to the grinder and whip out a perfect blade if you've never been there before. That comes from OJT my friend. Not from books.

STR
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Would you go to a "dentist" whose only experience is to pull out your tooth whatever problem you have with it?
Once lobotomy, leeches, blood-letting and exorcism were proven working practice of people who "get their hands dirty"...

You can do and practice something every day, you can be very good at it, yet you may not know "why" it works the way you do it. Although you may be master at what you do, there are "book smart" people that can understand it better than you.

BOTH theory and practice is required. I think you feel the same but you give them different weigh.
 
huugh said:
BOTH theory and practice is required. I think you feel the same but you give them different weigh.
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Yes, but most good bladesmiths have both theory and practical knowledge. Cliff, however, had only theory and no practical experience. Anyone who would attempt to lecture Sandvik on how to heat treat their steel while having never made a blade of their own is off their rocker.
 
Torm said:
Yes, but most good bladesmiths have both theory and practical knowledge. Cliff, however, had only theory and no practical experience. Anyone who would attempt to lecture Sandvik on how to heat treat their steel while having never made a blade of their own is off their rocker.
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My thoughts exactly. Some have questioned this and it even came back to me that Cliff said this is a misrepresentation of what he said. Its a matter of public record here on BF though in one of the early threads about the 13C26 steel and you can find it for yourself in more than one thread actually where Kershaw posted the Rockwell hardness of the 13C26 steel right after they were asked about it here publically. I think it was Cliff that asked. Kershaw posted it. I'd like to point out that I said in advance to Thomas that it was a given that before they even said a word about the hardness the steel was at that Cliff would say it was not right.

Kershaw, through Thomas stated that Sanvik made their recommendations for heat treat and hardness in the sporting use of the steel and Kershaw followed Sandvik's advice. Ok now did you get that? KERSHAW FOLLOWED THE ADVICE OF THE MANUFACTURER OF THE STEEL! The guys that created it, that make it, that developed it told them what they thought was best based on their knowledge and experience. And Cliff proceeded to tell them both publically and privately how they were wrong and why among all these other theories and third party studies just as he always did here using other people's knowledge he pieced together to come to a conclusion to start an arguement, defend it, then win the arguement with the final word at any cost, even if it meant dragging someone elses good name into a mud slinging contest. It was nothing more than the standard Cliff Stamp M.O.

Any one of you guys that defends this kind of thing as something good for this forum has to be blind! I can't imagine how anyone could argue to want to allow this back into our forum!

STR
 
i would say that anyone who is that fond of cliff should just follow him to wherever he is now, if there's a forum out there left that he hasnt been banned from yet.:D i honestly think that any that are left should be warned of his practices so they dont end up with the same problem bladeforums had. i for one am glad that the new week will be starting off cliff free.:thumbup:
 
I'm just waiting for the huge influx of makers who wouldn't come here because of Cliff to show up.;) Give it 3 months and tell me who's new or who's come back. If any.:rolleyes: At least the Cliff bashing gave one or two newbies a decent post count I guess. :rolleyes:

And ya, I agree that Cliff shouldn't have bit the hand that feeds him too.:(
 
Yep. I think if he wants to do that he needs to just start his own forum and run it how he choses. It would be one thing if Cashen, Fowler, or Landes or any of the other names thrown out there time and again for Cliff to win an argument were taking issue with Kershaw, Sanvik, Wayne Goddard, each other or anyone else but that wasn't the case. It was someone else doing that using their words with vaque reference to where it was said usually if any references or links were given at all. We all know who it was doing this.

I know from looking up and hearing from some of these folks CS referenced that they were misrepresented or outright misquoted out of context with other key parts of what was said by them not mentioned in the reference sited (conveniently) in such as way as to simply one up someone else in the arguement. This is not debating and its not even being candid with each other in my opinion. Its more like being underhanded and egotistical just to say "so there", "I was right" or some other childish thing such as this if you ask me.

I readily admit some of the practical tests, and even many things that CS said were informative. But its the behavior like mentioned above that was the real problem most of the time for me in dealing with him. Note such things as starting up things between Fowler, and Cashen, and Bos vs Meyer among many others.

STR
 
It funny Oilman, I was just think about the knife makers and others that were driven away, and wondering if they WILL come back, since Cliff is BANNED!!

I DO hope Cliff stays banned too!! I say good riddence. He was more trouble than he was worth!
 
tomcrx said:
I am not from California .. I am an East Coast hood rat that relocated to the midwest. I know that sometimes I sound like a granola-crunching, sandal-wearing Berkley undergrad.
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California is actually a great place that has much much more to it than politics, San Francisco, and L.A. People just need to actually go there and see it, rather than just base their opinions on TV shows and internet rhetoric.

Now as to Cliff, his remark about BF insulted more than just Spark, but any member who joined after Mike Turber left. So in the spirit of celebration that is displayed in this thread, I present this neat animated gif that some clever member (possibly a Post-Turber member?) out there created:

cliff3.gif
 
STR said:
I will just add that while it may be true that someone with a lot of book smarts can tell you specs and ideals to shoot for when it comes to really knowing, and I mean really knowing what he or she is talking about fully you have to be able to combine that with your own experiences doing it. At least that is how I feel about it. For example. Would you go to a dentist to let him pull your tooth if all he ever did was learn in books but had never done it?
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I'm not referring to knifemaking or heat-treating here, but with everything Cliff said for the most part that I could test myself within reason, I found he was right. Cliff praised taking tough steels to high hardness and taking the knives to thin edges. When I tried doing these things I found that these types of edge do work well. When I first got my Byrd Cara Cara I thought it cut well, but I heard Cliff talking about a thinned down Meadowlark in a thread. So I took my Cara Cara flat to the stone, leaving no secondary bevel, which is pretty acute. Cutting metal with it and twisting my cuts some even the edge rolled slightly, but didn't chip out. Certain woodworking techniques I'd read about from his posts I'd go out and try myself and found they worked well too. His opinion in certain areas related to knives were different than most people here, but I agree with a lot of aspects of them. People told me if I ground me SE Endura to PE it would ruin the heat treat; Cliff laughed at them and told me I'd be fine, by the time I read his post I had already re-ground it and found it worked to my satisfaction. When I post about reprofiling my Leek, a knife that ships with an edge Cliff would consider too obtuse for the knife, others say "Well it's already pretty thin..." I reprofiled my Leek to what I'd guess to be 8-12 deg per side and the performance is superb. He might not of been the most tactful person on BF, but he seemed to have some good ideas about how to use knives. I've also found his reviews much more comprehensive than most other reviews I've read elsewhere.
 
Vivi said:
I'm not referring to knifemaking or heat-treating here, but with everything Cliff said for the most part that I could test myself within reason, I found he was right. Cliff praised taking tough steels to high hardness and taking the knives to thin edges. When I tried doing these things I found that these types of edge do work well. When I first got my Byrd Cara Cara I thought it cut well, but I heard Cliff talking about a thinned down Meadowlark in a thread. So I took my Cara Cara flat to the stone, leaving no secondary bevel, which is pretty acute. Cutting metal with it and twisting my cuts some even the edge rolled slightly, but didn't chip out. Certain woodworking techniques I'd read about from his posts I'd go out and try myself and found they worked well too. His opinion in certain areas related to knives were different than most people here, but I agree with a lot of aspects of them. People told me if I ground me SE Endura to PE it would ruin the heat treat; Cliff laughed at them and told me I'd be fine, by the time I read his post I had already re-ground it and found it worked to my satisfaction. When I post about reprofiling my Leek, a knife that ships with an edge Cliff would consider too obtuse for the knife, others say "Well it's already pretty thin..." I reprofiled my Leek to what I'd guess to be 8-12 deg per side and the performance is superb. He might not of been the most tactful person on BF, but he seemed to have some good ideas about how to use knives. I've also found his reviews much more comprehensive than most other reviews I've read elsewhere.
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No one is going to argue that thinning an edge makes it cut a little better. I understand your point Vivi and its a good one. Also, I'm not trying to suggest that some suggestions can't be tried or that they can't work in general. You are referring to something Cliff did himself. I'm not. Specific technical know how and other more detailed things are another story.

On practical tests that Cliff did himself well, yeah, he can speak first hand about that because he did it. But when he tells you how to do things he has not done first hand you have to be careful. Will it work? Perhaps so but I think the fact that he hasn't done that himself should weigh in there somewhere as to how much you can say is first hand and how much is not or you end up with, "well its supposed to work, gee I don't know what happened, Cashen said," and lead up to maybe you should try this and so on only to find out the guy never even tried it himself. I'm not attempting to say Cliff didn't make good points Ok? I'm only saying in a nut shell description, something like, "If you were a race car driver and getting ready to go around a new track you'd never done before and I told you how to properly take the right bank on turn number three but you then found out I'd never even driven the track but that I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, would you take my advice?' Pun intended. :eek:

Telling a manufacturer how to do their edges sold to the masses is out of line I think, as was calling them liars and everythng else that came up. They have to cover their behinds and I think you know as well as I do that a .005 thin edge in the hands of most real world users would be disaster for a company to deal with regarding warranty work. We want them to survive I hope, not go under because of stupid moves like that.

I like some of the steels Cliff talked about personally also. But M2 is problematic for a number of reasons. Ask BenchMade. You know, dealers complain about corrosion or little pits showing up on 13C26 to Kershaw more than they would like. Can you imagine the response M2 would bring?

Have you spoken with Thomas at all about the Shun line and some of the things they've seen on those thinner kitchen knives? Thinner is fine for some that can make them work. But John Doe out in the oil fields would end up breaking that off and throwing it on the ground with some very loud expletives I'm sure. :D

STR
 
That was always Cliff problem. He could not differentiate. He did have great ideas, and a very good non-consumer point of view. BUT, this is a place of knives and knife makers, and theres a difference between the layman and the collector, and Cliff could not seem to see that. SO he would get in ridiculous arguments that had no gain for either side. And he would exagerate just to win what was basically a verbal game of tic-tac-toe.That tends to burn bridges, especially with people who see this a a livelihood, and the collectors who love them. Besides Cliff did NOT get banned by one of the anticliff's, but by Spark, who is maybe one of the most against the grain, non sycophantic folks in the knife world.
And it was done for what was a legitimate reason, an actual rule, and not just because people didn't like him. So unless Spark changes his mind, Cliff is gone, for better or worse. Besides, for technical stuff, and for the non collector mindsets, theres still Thom, Hardheart, Larrin, and others. And they won't start multiple goofy arguments with knife makers about making a 600.00-900.00 s30v-ATS-34-hoosafuk big chopper, saying its not a optimal steel, has a ugly handle, or bad geometry, which just might be obvious to anyone who has ever used knives in that capacity. Such arguments are pointless, and serve no purpose but to degrade a mans livelihood, with is totally unnecessary, since almost no one would ever use a 600.00-900.00+ custom recurved stainless fantasy knife for a chopping knife anyway, and if they do, they should have more than enough cash to replace it. So.... Later Cliff, you may be gone, but your legacy (infamous or not) lives on.
 
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