Buck 110 in Bos 5160

[Cobalt]

I actually have two buck 110s...let me tell you this: it is a shitty folder indeed! clunky, heavy yet not suited for any kind of real cutting shores...It has been great in it's days...long gone now lol

Well, on this we disagree. Although I currently do not own a 110, I have owned several over the years and they were totally solid folding knives, certainly on the tougher side. My biggest gripe has always been that the 420 or 425 steel they used was total junk, Todays use of better steels certainly makes it a better choice and it is a classic knife.

 

[shinyedges]

So duane,

Some reputable makers who do 3v well that I have used are Daniel Winkler of Winkler knives, and big chris who is a maker here on bladeforums who hand makes each knife him self and does an amazing job on geometry and heat treating. There are significant advantages to 3v over simple carbon and spring steels most of which I already told you, do some poking around on bladeforums archives and you'll see many knifemakers favorite steel.

3v is a carbon steel by the way and as such can rust but from my experience it is WAY more corrosion resistant than simple carbon steels, And I do mean WAY more. With just wiping I have yet to even see ANY corrosion. My 1095 blades... will rust with water on them almost before your eyes.

If your not familiar with particle metallurgy look into it, particle steels are generally called cpm steels.. for example cpm 3v, cpm s30v, cpm 154 (not to be confused with 154cm, which is not a particle steel).

Typically cpm steels are tougher and more wear resistant than their non particle counterparts.

This is just a short, very general post to get you pointed in the right direction.

This is the tip of the ice berg so to speak, there are steels that surpass 3v in toughness (s7) and steels that surpass 3v in edge retention (s110v) but very few steels beat 3v in every category. Its definitely one of my favorites.

some other top performers are z wear and vandis 4e, which I am looking forward to trying out. And busse combats infi steel is another very well rounded steel.

 

[Duane Sanders]

So duane,

Some reputable makers who do 3v well that I have used are Daniel Winkler of Winkler knives, and big chris who is a maker here on bladeforums who hand makes each knife him self and does an amazing job on geometry and heat treating. There are significant advantages to 3v over simple carbon and spring steels most of which I already told you, do some poking around on bladeforums archives and you'll see many knifemakers favorite steel.

3v is a carbon steel by the way and as such can rust but from my experience it is WAY more corrosion resistant than simple carbon steels, And I do mean WAY more. With just wiping I have yet to even see ANY corrosion. My 1095 blades... will rust with water on them almost before your eyes.

If your not familiar with particle metallurgy look into it, particle steels are generally called cpm steels.. for example cpm 3v, cpm s30v, cpm 154 (not to be confused with 154cm, which is not a particle steel).

Typically cpm steels are tougher and more wear resistant than their non particle counterparts.

This is just a short, very general post to get you pointed in the right direction.

This is the tip of the ice berg so to speak, there are steels that surpass 3v in toughness (s7) and steels that surpass 3v in edge retention (s110v) but very few steels beat 3v in every category. Its definitely one of my favorites.

some other top performers are z wear and vandis 4e, which I am looking forward to trying out. And busse combats infi steel is another very well rounded steel.

Thank you.

I do appreciate the info. I did do a bunch of reading and let the rabbit hole dig itself. I didn't do specific searching. Some of the things I came across was the infamous charpy numbers. So I dug into 5160 charpy numbers and there is nothing out there but everyone who did comment on it who had done tests say that 5160 is extremely similar to S7 for charpy numbers. I also noticed the charpy number changed with the HRC. The harder the lower the number.

I have no clue what typical 3V hardness values are at all. The 5160 blades I have looked at are 53-55, 55-57, and some run 57-59. The knife in my BOB is a 5160 blade at 53-55 and it is the toughest single blade I have ever beat on. It would take a machine of some sort to just damage it, let alone break it. I ran it hard before it got packed away in the bag and I check it and oil it every few months. I don't particularly like it but it's unbelievably tough and has better than just decent edge holding.

That don't mean I won't keep looking at 3V. The one thing is I know what I like from using knives a long time. About the best I could see I would like is Bradford knives. The guardian knives are nice but the guardian 4 is not sold in 3V yet, the 3 and 5 is. I can wait it out to see if the 4 comes up in 3v. If not I might just get a guardian 5. They aren't crazy hard so there should be a good amount of toughness in them.

Anyway, that's where I stand right now. It does look like an interesting steel. I will have to look at the other steels another time. I am not done reading about 3V yet.

 

[shinyedges]

Ive never heard of 5160 being over 100 joules of impact toughness like s7 is, 3v is something like 50 or 60 joules if my memory serves me correctly, 1095 is something like 30 ish joules. It's been awhile since I read up on them.

the toughness does indeed change with hardness, but I'm almost 100 percent certain 3v at 58 rc is tougher than 5160 at any hardness. Maybe chiral.grolim will stop by and chime in with numbers. I'm too lazy to search myself. I'm hitting the hay.

One more thing, out right toughness doesn't equal best at resisting damage, s7 will deform when the higher hardness of 3v will keep everything intact without any deformation. The toughness s7 has is in shock absorption and ductility, same goes for low rc simple spring steels.

steels with the ability to reach a decent hardness like 58 rc AND maintain their high toughness will resist deformation better than softer tougher steels. Yea steels get complicated.

 

[Cobalt]

Thank you.

I do appreciate the info. I did do a bunch of reading and let the rabbit hole dig itself. I didn't do specific searching. Some of the things I came across was the infamous charpy numbers. So I dug into 5160 charpy numbers and there is nothing out there but everyone who did comment on it who had done tests say that 5160 is extremely similar to S7 for charpy numbers. I also noticed the charpy number changed with the HRC. The harder the lower the number.

I have no clue what typical 3V hardness values are at all. The 5160 blades I have looked at are 53-55, 55-57, and some run 57-59. The knife in my BOB is a 5160 blade at 53-55 and it is the toughest single blade I have ever beat on. It would take a machine of some sort to just damage it, let alone break it. I ran it hard before it got packed away in the bag and I check it and oil it every few months. I don't particularly like it but it's unbelievably tough and has better than just decent edge holding.

That don't mean I won't keep looking at 3V. The one thing is I know what I like from using knives a long time. About the best I could see I would like is Bradford knives. The guardian knives are nice but the guardian 4 is not sold in 3V yet, the 3 and 5 is. I can wait it out to see if the 4 comes up in 3v. If not I might just get a guardian 5. They aren't crazy hard so there should be a good amount of toughness in them.

Anyway, that's where I stand right now. It does look like an interesting steel. I will have to look at the other steels another time. I am not done reading about 3V yet.

I have been using 5160 for 20 years and I have owned many S7, A2 and a bunch of other steels. In my experience 5160 feels about as tough as A2 steel. But no where near S7 in toughness.

 

[Makael]

Less than 28.00 for classic 110 at walmart, cmon. History, usa made, warranty, etc. Whatever steel they use who cares. What other knife out there gives so many choices over the last 51 years. Geat knife for knife lovers.

The 200 knives they made was a special order. They will all sell extremely fast.

 

[singularity35]

S7 is used in jackhammer bits. I doubt 5160 can survive for long if used this way.

 

[J W Bensinger]

Imo 5160 doesn't really shine unless you differential harden or differential temper.
I used it for years for pretty much everything I made, with a 60 hrc (ish) edge and a soft or drawn-to-spring tempered spine, and it's never failed me. It's far from the ultimate steel nbut it is a very good steel.

 

[mael333ca]

Well, on this we disagree. Although I currently do not own a 110, I have owned several over the years and they were totally solid folding knives, certainly on the tougher side. My biggest gripe has always been that the 420 or 425 steel they used was total junk, Todays use of better steels certainly makes it a better choice and it is a classic knife.

sry I brought down the knife, because I do respect it somehow. It is the reason I own a S30V cabela's Alaskan edition and another one from Chuck Buck Signature series. But like indiana jones once said

 

[bodog]

Duane, check this out
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1305088-ZT-0180-Hard-Use

And this
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...MT21P-Mule-Team-Fixed-Blade-with-CPM-4V/page3

And this
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Metalworks)-52100-Hard-Use?highlight=Luong+La

And this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IcovoTyGiRg

And this
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1219121-Spyderco-MT-19?highlight=mt19

And this
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...lworks-Cruforge-V-Superquenched-Slicer-Review




Now 5160 at 53 RC may be tough, but it won't resist deformation worth a damn. That's why steels like 3V, 4V, Vanadis 4E, Cruwear, etc are so interesting. They can be taken to much higher hardnesses and still retain major amounts of toughness, resist rolling and cracking, and still have enough carbide volume to take on abrasive materials for a good while. Much more so than 5160. There's a whole world of steel out there. You don't have to be constrained by low Rockwell numbers to get toughness anymore. If you're talking about a lawnmower blade or jackhammer bit, then that's a different story, but lawnmower blades and jackhammer bits don't make great knives. They make great lawnmower blades and jackhammer bits and the steels chosen for those applications make sense. Knives are not meant to strap to a motor and cut grass or a jackhammer.

 

[Cobalt]

Bodog, while I agree with you, if you take 5160 up to 57-58 it will resist deformation for sure, the problem is that it is now not as tough and springy like it is meant to be. I would love to see charpy numbers for thru hardened 5160 at an Rc of 58. I bet it is close to A2, with no where near the wear resistance. And that is the problem. It probably is the best carbon steel ever fitted to a buck 110 though. Which is very cool for 110 fans.

 

[bodog]

Bodog, while I agree with you, if you take 5160 up to 57-58 it will resist deformation for sure, the problem is that it is now not as tough and springy like it is meant to be. I would love to see charpy numbers for thru hardened 5160 at an Rc of 58. I bet it is close to A2, with no where near the wear resistance. And that is the problem. It probably is the best carbon steel ever fitted to a buck 110 though. Which is very cool for 110 fans.

Yeah, I agree. Duane said his knives were generally in the 53-55 RC range, though, that's why mentioned it. Not that 5160 isn't a good steel or anything, some people may read it as such. There are pros and cons to all steels used in most good knives. No steel can be everything to everyone.

 

[Cobalt]

Yup, my Himalayan imports Khukuris were very tough and the edge was hard while the spine was soft. That coupled with a minimum of 3/8" thickness made them very tough. The use of 5160 kept prices very low. The same knife made of 3V or even differentially HT'd 52100 made by a custom maker would be 4-5 times more expensive is cost is definitely a factor. 5160 is cheap enough that Jerry Busse was using the steel to teach his people to grind shapes of his knives into it. These blanks eventually became Ranger knives.

 

[shinyedges]

I don't think at 58 rc 5160 retains a2 level toughness but I would like to see some numbers as well, typically spring steels are tough because they left well below that hardness.

In the case of mr. bensinger I am curious what size blades he took up to 60 rc and how hard they were tested.

Regular old destruction testing would reveal a lot I think in this instance.

I mean think about it, I through hardened lawn mower blade would hold an edge and cut MUCH longer, but would it hold up to impacting hard objects? probably not.


And bodog, that's what I was telling duane.. but I don't think he fully got it..

Bodog, while I agree with you, if you take 5160 up to 57-58 it will resist deformation for sure, the problem is that it is now not as tough and springy like it is meant to be. I would love to see charpy numbers for thru hardened 5160 at an Rc of 58. I bet it is close to A2, with no where near the wear resistance. And that is the problem. It probably is the best carbon steel ever fitted to a buck 110 though. Which is very cool for 110 fans.

 

[Cobalt]

I mean think about it, I through hardened lawn mower blade would hold an edge and cut MUCH longer, but would it hold up to impacting hard objects? probably not.

.

Especially when it is rocks it will hit which is usually the case. The reason why they probably do keep it so low. Also since 5160 is a vehicle leaf spring steel, in that application it is way lower than even 52 Rc. probably low 40's high 30's. I have not chopped up concrete or steel with my khukuris but it would be interesting.

 

[shinyedges]

When I wrote my post I was thinking of rocks being hit lol I myself have ran over a rock or 2..

And I agree on the leaf spring hardness being significantly lower as well. I'd guess 5160 at 60 rc has lost ALOT of toughness but still has enough for mundane knife tasks and cutting.. but start D testing that sucker and the truth shall set us free lol

Especially when it is rocks it will hit which is usually the case. The reason why they probably do keep it so low. Also since 5160 is a vehicle leaf spring steel, in that application it is way lower than even 52 Rc. probably low 40's high 30's. I have not chopped up concrete or steel with my khukuris but it would be interesting.

 

[shqxk]

I'm not sure how tough you guys really need as a knife blade but the word toughness has broad meaning, charpy impact test only shown the energy absorbed in breaking material but will not tell anything about resilience of it...
This is 52100 HT to 61HRC and I will tell you don't expect CPM-3V to be able to do the same...

[video=youtube;Ecy5ihmYO3M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecy5ihmYO3M&feature=youtu.be[/video]

CPM-3V while have higher charpy c notch (Crucible) than 52100 or O1 at 60HRC, it will have much lower elastic/plastic deformation yield range than those 2 carbon steels... I known because I'm working with all of these steel.

 

[shinyedges]

^52-100 is a favorite of mine, but I don't see how what that blade in your video did equates to better in anyway than 3v... people don't create knives to bend them.

In my knives I would rather have my knife resist deforming or become malleable... when taking knives to the thinness of the one in your video what tough task could it accomplish?

I don't see the point of your post really..

What knife purpose requires the blade to bend like that?

Straight razors do not bend like that, and I can't think of a single reason why a deformed knife is better than a knife that isn't deformed lol

 

[shqxk]

The resilience of steel at given hardness does relate to the characteristic of how the edge resist deformation from stress/impact.

I think you are misunderstanding charpy c notch test and strength, 3V at the same hardness of 52100 both will have very similar strength or in other word you need similar force to deform it via stress. 52100 has higher range of elastic deformation which mean at some point which 3V already permanently deformed, 52100 will back to true. 3V has higher plastic deformation which mean it can take more force before break.

 

[shinyedges]

I understand the difference between charpy test and strength just fine.

What proof do you have that 3v and 52-100 resist deforming equally? Having owned and used both steels I disagree that 52-100 resists lateral stress as well as 3v.

Basically your stating it takes the same force to bend 52-100 and 3v and that when 3v breaks 52-100 will return to true... I call Bullspit. prove it.

If you have done tests on both then give specific detains.. like:

stock thickness of both tested blades

length of both pieces being tested

hardnesses of both being tested

how you applied the force to the blades and measured the force

how many degrees did they bend before 3v broke and 52-100 return to true

video proof? anything?

otherwise your making statements with out merit or any data.

In order to assert what you said, you need to provide scientific or at least video footage of all the testing taking place.

The resilience of steel at given hardness does relate to the characteristic of how the edge resist deformation from stress/impact.

I think you are misunderstanding charpy c notch test and strength, 3V at the same hardness of 52100 both will have very similar strength or in other word you need similar force to deform it via stress. 52100 has higher range of elastic deformation which mean at some point which 3V already permanently deformed, 52100 will back to true. 3V has higher plastic deformation which mean it can take more force before break.