Buck using Sandvik?

In a nutshell if we were not excited about it we would not be using the steel. This steel allows us to offer a compromise between the corrossion resistance and edge retention gap between 420HC and S30V....and I know that Sandvik was very impressed as all our vendors are, on our heat treat results. If you can impress the experts you know you are on to something....
 
CJ Buck said:
In a nutshell if we were not excited about it we would not be using the steel. This steel allows us to offer a compromise between the corrosion resistance and edge retention gap between 420HC and S30V....and I know that Sandvik was very impressed as all our vendors are, on our heat treat results. If you can impress the experts you know you are on to something....
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:thumbup: Sounds excellent! I can hardly wait to get my hands on some ;) So has anyone "field tested" the Sandvik yet? What did they think?
 
David Martin said:
Habbie, On the second knife, is the cutting edge up or down?DM
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Hi DM,

the cutting edge is down.

For the topic:

Sandvik steel has a very good name in Europe, also in Germany. I think it would be sold better here as the 420HC. A lot of Germans don't belive that the 420HC is different to the 420. They don't trust in the 420HC. With this background an ascending business volume woud be the result of a steel change - here in Germany. But question: Which Sandvik steel is decided to use? Is it the 12C27 that is used in the Laguiole knives from France?

Best,
Haebbie
 
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Haebbie said:
Hi DM,

the cutting edge is down.

For the topic:

Sandvik steel has a very good name in Europe, also in Germany. I think it would be sold better here as the 420HC. A lot of Germans don't belive that the 420HC is different to the 420. They don't trust in the 420HC. With this background an ascending business volume woud be the result of a steel change - here in Germany. But question: Which Sandvik steel is decided to use? Is it the 12C27 that is used in the Laguiole knives from France?

Best,
Haebbie
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Hi Haebbie,
It's 12C27M in the Ergohunter and 13C26 in the Vantage and the Paradigm.
//Jerker
 
Larry Oden said:
Jerker/Razorsharp244,
Thanks for your input. The overwhelming majority of us appreciate learning about different steels, especially those used by our favorite knife company!! Please overlook 334dave and his comments. I believe he means well but sometimes just gets carried away. He has acted up before on this forum - we just try to show him a lot of grace. He is speaking only for himself.
In terms of edge retention, ease of sharpening, corrosion resistance and cost, can you give us an idea as to how the Sandvik steels being used by Buck for 2009 stack up to 420HC?
Thanks,
Larry
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Hi Larry,
The major difference between Sandvik knife steels and 420HC is the microstructure. We allow a maximum carbide size of 2 microns in diameter. this is because in the razorblade industry they define "sharp" as a consitent edge radius of maximum 1 micro millimeter (about 0.00004" if my math is correct). This fine microstructure gives several advatages.

Toughness: Every particle in the steel is a "weak" point. Small carbides means small weak points and high toughness.

Sharpness: As described above.
Edge retention: Small carbides means many carbides. many carbides help with edge retention due to wear resistance.

Hardness: Small carbides dissolve easy, this means good reaction to heat treatment. Max HRC for 13C26 is 62 and for 12C27M it's 59.

Regrindability: Small carbide steel is easier to regrind than coarse steels.

Cost: I will not go into detail here since that is an agreement between Buck and Sandvik. But as a general statment you will find our product more expensive than standard AISI grades like 420 and 440. hopefully the benefits of productivity, easy of polishing and performance can fill the gap.

Regards
//Jerker
 
presz said:
The s30v Blurs are stone washed not bead blasted. Here is a link. http://www.kershawknives.com/productdetails.php?id=376&brand=kershaw
Stone wash is much nicer and less prone to rust. All of Kershaws Sanvick knives were bead blasted and get rust stops very easy. 2 hours in my pocket in the summer and they are covered in rust spots. I polished my junkyard dog down to 1500 grit and no more problems. It takes a very fine polished edge, from Kershaw. I can't wait to see what it will be like with Bos heat treat! :thumbup:
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Hi presz,
13C26 is corrosion resistant but the surface finish has a lot of impact. A polished surface will surely improve the corrosion properties. Still, two hours in the pocket causes rust, that does not seem ok? Do you live in a humid area?

Btw I have investigated the heat treated blades from BUCK and they are spot on.
Regards
//Jerker
 
CJ Buck said:
In a nutshell if we were not excited about it we would not be using the steel. This steel allows us to offer a compromise between the corrossion resistance and edge retention gap between 420HC and S30V....and I know that Sandvik was very impressed as all our vendors are, on our heat treat results. If you can impress the experts you know you are on to something....
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Hi CJ.
Yes, we were impressed with the heat treat. Both on our steels and the 420HC we checked.

I agree that we make a good "AVID" match.

Regards
//Jerker
 
Jerker,
Great posts and thanks for your effort. I am also looking forward to using a Buck knife with Sandvik steel.
Larry
 
Scott Hartman said:
Good questions Larry. I linked to the site Jerker provided, and I'm curious to know if the heat treat involves belt or batch furnace(and what the difference is), and the cryo quench. It shows 59 & 60 Rockwells, I'd also like to know how it performs against Bucks S30V, and if the Sanviks are prone to micro chipping. I'm just not at all familiar with Sandvik steels:o
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Hi Scott,
The reason for the difference between belt (piece) hardening and batch hardening is in the times required at maximum temperature. Also there is a slight difference in hardening temperature for the furnaces. For a batch furnace you also need to equilize the temperature during ramp up, otherwise you might suffer inconsitent heat treat from the blades at the corners of the batch compared to the center of the batch.

S30V is a high alloy powder steel and it's quite different from our steels. The main thing is carbide density. It's MUCH higher for S30V which provides better wear resistance. Our steels, being fine carbide, are tougher and easier to sharpen.

Our steels are not prone to chipping. They will roll instead. All steels must roll or chip when they get pushed hard enough. Powder steels and tool steels typically chip and steels with our structure typically roll.

Best Regards
//Jerker
 
Silverdagger said:
I believe Jerker stated that it meets or exceeds 420HC in every category. On an unrelated not, I read that STR liked one version as his favorite steel. It was a low to mid grade Kershaw type hardened at 64 Rockwell. Apparently, according to him, it is the most versatile stainless around. It can do anything if hardened at various levels. Whatever is desired, can be achieved.
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Hi Silverdagger,
64 is really on the high side for 13C26. We recommend maximum 62 for knives. For razors they heat treat this grade to 63.3 but due to thermal coatings the 13C26 in a typical razor is 57-59 HRC.

In the guide I linked earlier in this thread you can our recommended range for our steels. It's a bit hidden but you can find it on the actual H/T diagrams. for 13C26 the range is about 55-62 HRC.

Regards
//Jerker
 
CJ Buck said:
In a nutshell if we were not excited about it we would not be using the steel. .
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Joe, Chuck, Larry and Jerker and all the rest ..

well this is not easy but feel i must due to new information i learned..
late last night (for me)
i had a over a two hr chat with

leroy remer on the subject of steels were they come from and were buck gets it..
he really know a heck of a lot more then jest how to make a knife
and what he said i not only could understand,
but it really made sense to me ..


SO with out going in to details ...
leave it to say i now feel that..
i can add a 110 with ats 34 or even these new
Sandvik knife steels to my collection ..
i would like to try them both in a 110..

on another note
CJ any time you can go ahead and pick a winner on slogan contest!
 
334,
You are honorable to speak up concerning your haste. I understand the proud representative defending his quality product.
I appreciate the need of the company to find materials that make their products quality and cost effective to the public. BUT,

don't anybody give up giving well thought out opinions or desires.
Dave, you really care about the 110 and many of us observed your enthusiasm for the company and fellow collectors in Idaho. I look forward to you continuing to act so in the long future................

I am hoping that no one gives up the gentlemanly expression of opinion and precieved knowledge. That is why I come to a manufactors forum. If countering opinions weren't expressed occasionally then this would be a public relations site and not a group of knife interested common folks.

Express critical thoughts, do it in a classy manner and all will benefit.

On the expression of support for American products - I can find no fault, in fact it is not a casual thought but a duty to OUR Republic. People are still dying in support of that Republic , which gives us the ability and right to express opinion on a forum. It's all in how you express the support, blindly or with open debate and decent discussion as the founders of our country did in it's creation.

Do I want all of an American knife made in America, you betcha'. But, the world is getting smaller, the use of 'worldly' products is everywhere. I will have to be satisfied when those products are of high quality and the use of over ocean quality materials support the survival of American jobs.

Dave and everybody, keep after it, lets all get along, express our opinions like your granddad, John Wayne, George Washington and your mother are standing at your shoulder........

300Bucks
 
300Bucks said:
BUT,

#1 don't anybody give up giving well thought out opinions or desires.

#2 the gentlemanly expression of opinion and percieved knowledge.

#3 Express critical thoughts, do it in a classy manner and all will benefit.

#4 It's all in how you express the support,

#5 lets all get along, express our opinions like your granddad,and your mother are standing at your shoulder........
300Bucks
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Well put 300, but these points here are where some people need to really focus. Then things will be all good here!

Its great that we all have different opinions as well, we all can't like the same girl. But I cannot see a huge problem with Sweden, or any of their products, especially if it keeps american workers building knives in america! If it turns out to be truly better than 420HC, bring it! It also looks like it may have brought back some knives to the USA. Alot of the knives are now USA made not offshore. That was the biggest sticking point (IMHO)
I don't think there is anything wrong with anyone in this forum stating their opinions, its how some go about it, as I highlighted from your post.

I am glad though, that Dave finally gave Buck his approval for Sandvik as well, now I hope they start the lines up again, it was holding up delivery of my Vantage :D ;)
 
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Mighty Well Said Dave. +1:thumbup:
I to am delighted you have decided to give the new products a look see.
 
Is it the 12C27 that is used in the Laguiole knives from France?

Best,
Haebbie[/QUOTE]
Yes it is but there heat treatment,is bad,they hardening the steel around 54HRC.
That is just soft,the knife takes a really sharp edge,but does not last long,top of that there is not real edge on the folders,so forget the edge geometry.The quality of the knife is not even close to buck.
 
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