Building Shelter without a Mora?

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Thank you Ebbtide,

hiking boots? I use mocs, barefeet and in winter my mukluks, and I'm going to make tire sandals. Also I have a pair of running shoes, and if was going to go on a trails a lot I'd probably use those. You can't feel the ground at all in hiking boots,plus they're not good for your feet.

Skammer for long journeys carrying all three is heavy? well that really depends, what is a long journey? My mora is light and so is my survivor saw, you could always just bring a saw blade curled up in tin and make the frame for the saw in the bush (if you know how), and an axe, well in the winter here it is very neccessary.

How about you look at what people use that actually LIVE the skills, for the region that you'll be in.

If I was going to spend more money on a knife, it would be like a mora knife just a little more durable. Only real problem that I have had with my moras is the tip being too thin, so if it breaks off I just grind it down. I appreciate good custom work, and I also appreciate practical tools that do the job. Big chopping blades like the swamp rat knives have bad bevels for carving, so I wouldn't buy.

And you can do a lot more with a good sharp axe in the northwoods than with a big knife. There's a reason why mors and other experienced people consider it the most important tool in the bush.

A machete is probably very important in the jungle, I have no experience in the jungle.

If you are experienced then you should be able to make a shelter without a steel knife, and make a friction fire from scratch without one too.

I use surplus wool clothing, very cheap price but works good.
 
Grant,

Large axes are used in the jungle for felling trees but most people don't carry them unless they plan to fell trees. Heavy, woody brush is cleared with a "foice", a heavy billhook on a large axe handle. These are workers tools and are not carried for wilderness survival here. The most common "bush tool" is the machete with a blade from 14 - 20 inches depending on the type of jungle. Most machetes encountered in Brazil are made by Tramontina. Small knives are encountered in various types but most common is a scaled down butcher knife also made by Tramontina with a 4 inch blade. These are carried in common leather sheaths or simply stabbed into a cork and dropped in a pack.

The thing that amazes me down here is the crude methods used to sharpen tools of every type. I have seen it all from corase commercial stones to river rocks and cement slabs. It is my experience that rural people here appreciate a well made sharp knife but don't have a clue as to how to keep it at peak perfromance. Whatever you sharpen against a cement slab will be a blade sharpened on a cement slab no matter how much it cost originally.

The vast majority of people living in or at the edges of the jungles making their living that way do so with about $15 worth of steel, mainly because they are poor and they know what they are doing. Are they my picks for wilderness survival? No, we can afford better. Mac
 
"hiking boots? I use mocs, barefeet and in winter my mukluks, and I'm going to make tire sandals. Also I have a pair of running shoes, and if was going to go on a trails a lot I'd probably use those. You can't feel the ground at all in hiking boots,plus they're not good for your feet."

I do not have 1 inch thick callouses on my feet like natives so must wear footwear. On trails running shoes are ok if your ankles are strong off trail you are asking for broken ankles so I forbid shoes in my course, must be boots of some fashion. Twisted ankles and cuts are bad for my feet not boots. Where did you learn boots are bad for your feet? :confused:

"Skammer for long journeys carrying all three is heavy? well that really depends, what is a long journey? My mora is light and so is my survivor saw, you could always just bring a saw blade curled up in tin and make the frame for the saw in the bush (if you know how), and an axe, well in the winter here it is very neccessary. "

I own several saws of many designs and yes they work to cut wood and no they do not pry or chop or split so are less usefull. I do carry a small gardner sized saw for quick cutting sometimes. I live in a winter climate and don't carry an axe unless its a very long trip and motor driven. A large light shovel is more important than an axe short term in winter.

"How about you look at what people use that actually LIVE the skills, for the region that you'll be in."

I didn't "look at" I lived with some native peoples and used their tools.

"If I was going to spend more money on a knife, it would be like a mora knife just a little more durable. Only real problem that I have had with my moras is the tip being too thin, so if it breaks off I just grind it down. I appreciate good custom work, and I also appreciate practical tools that do the job. Big chopping blades like the swamp rat knives have bad bevels for carving, so I wouldn't buy."

Swamp rat makes nice durable carving sized blades MUCH better quality than a mora. Change the bevel :rolleyes: .

"And you can do a lot more with a good sharp axe in the northwoods than with a big knife. "

We agree on this point, however an axe of decent size to do such things is too heavy to carry and impractical for short term trips.


"There's a reason why mors and other experienced people consider it the most important tool in the bush."


They are correct but how many go out for a short trip hauling a full axe?


"If you are experienced then you should be able to make a shelter without a steel knife, and make a friction fire from scratch without one too."

I am experienced and need no equipment to survive, but unlike you apparently I understand the value of tools and the benefits of utilizing them. I have no intention of going native and make moccasins when I can buy good boots ;).


"I use surplus wool clothing, very cheap price but works good."

Wool is wonderfull but heavy and warm in summer.

Skam
 
grant4353 said:
. . .If I was going to spend more money on a knife, it would be like a mora knife just a little more durable. Only real problem that I have had with my moras is the tip being too thin, so if it breaks off I just grind it down. I appreciate good custom work, and I also appreciate practical tools that do the job. Big chopping blades like the swamp rat knives have bad bevels for carving, so I wouldn't buy.
. . .
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You might want to look at a Swamp Rat Bandicoot (or better Inficoot). They are fully flat ground and in the length class you are suggesting.
 
Wow, here we go again with "my knife is better than yours". I say use the tools that you like best, and fits your needs.
 
Myakka said:
Wow, here we go again with "my knife is better than yours". I say use the tools that you like best, and fits your needs.
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Even though the tip snaps off admittedly. ;)

Give your head a shake there is quality differences with every product.

Skam
 
Just thought that I would throw this in. I don't actually have a Mora which I started the thread about but I have a Helle Odel. Is this a similiar knife as far as the blade and durability go compared to say the Frost Mora. I like the big knives but was thinking about the plastic handled Mora for canoeing. I think that basically the consensus is here that if that's what you have with you it will work.
 
cucharadedragon said:
Just thought that I would throw this in. I don't actually have a Mora which I started the thread about but I have a Helle Odel. Is this a similiar knife as far as the blade and durability go compared to say the Frost Mora. I like the big knives but was thinking about the plastic handled Mora for canoeing. I think that basically the consensus is here that if that's what you have with you it will work.
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The Odel is one of five Helle's I own. It seems stouter than any Mora except, perhaps, the Mora 2000 (AKA "Mora 2K"). It cuts well and I have (carefully) batoned wood with it. I would not regard it as a prying tool, but I usually do not pry with knives.
 
Thomas Linton said:
I would not regard it as a prying tool, but I usually do not pry with knives.
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I agree. I really bought it more for when on my shorter, lighter hikes as a "just in case" and as a second knife to go with my HI Khukuri which I would use for heavier tasks.
 
skammer said:
Even though the tip snaps off admittedly. ;)

Give your head a shake there is quality differences with every product.

Skam
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Yes, and that happens to me all all time ;) I wonder how all the native people and primitive man survived without the might Busse survival knife. ;)
 
Ebbtide said:
Which is better, an inexpensive item and the knowledge of its use and limitations or an expensive item with little or no knowledge?
That was the point.
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No, that was the straw man made up. The actual point was that better tools allow more functionality, it isn't like buying better gear causes you to lose experience. Experience is also selective as well, you can't use a high end felling axe like a low quality hardware store version for example, the technique has to be different for a number of reasons. Of course you get experience, it is part of preperation, just as is gear selection.

-Cliff
 
No, I was replying to this.
Again I would ask for all those advocating cheap knives for survival because you can survive with them, do you also advocate cheap clothes, cheap compasses, etc.
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And....
I never implied that buying quality would cause you to lose experience.
Buying quality should not be a replacement for knowledge and experience.

You know what?
This is pointless.

My straw man can kick your straw mans butt.
:yawn:
 
Myakka said:
Yes, and that happens to me all all time ;) I wonder how all the native people and primitive man survived without the might Busse survival knife. ;)
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When you have gone native for 30 yrs you will be qualified to make that statement.

Until then quality tools help us mere modern mortals bridge the skill gap. ;)

Skam
 
Skammer,
Your one wise man ;) I think I'm going to sell off all my things except for my Busse & Swamp Rat and go native for 30 yrs ;) Than I be back to discuss this.



 
Ebbtide said:
Buying quality should not be a replacement for knowledge and experience.
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This is a complete fabrication of an arguement no one proposed. Knowledge and experience *allows* you to pick better tools. The more axe work I did, the more I learned about axes, this allowed me to seek out better axes.

This made me more efficient, I was able to cut more wood, and get more experience. I can cut wood with a cheap hardware store, unmodifed axe, I however don't recommend this if someone asks me for a decent felling axe.

Knives same as other tools have benefits from higher quality, having better tools increases your ability just like having better clothes acts to help you handle the enviroment better.

-Cliff
 
Skammer,

I've heard you say many times about living with native people. It must have been a heckuva an experience!!! Can you elaborate on your experiences with them and what you learned? Where was it? What environment and terrain?

It's invaluable stuff and I'd love to have it shared here on the forums. Got any pix we can see?

Best,

~Brian.
 
The Ice Man carried a small knife. Looking at the pictures it looks like it only had a three inch blade. He also carried a few small flint scrapers and a bronze headed hatchet.

This is probably close to what many people carried for thousands of years.

I suppose that if a man with a hatchet wanted to pry something he could cut a piece of ash or oak or some other hard wood to use as a pry bar.

Getting slightly off track. A book I was reading about the Ice Man said that the grass cape he was wearing was used by the local people until the first part of the 20th century! I guess it was a good design.

Chad
 
a bronze headed hatchet.
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The head was copper, which apparently was a surprise to archaelogists.

The difference is that bronze is actually a fair hatchet material while copper is soft and can be but little work hardened.

TLM
 
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