Building Shelter without a Mora?

[skammer]

Skammer,

I've heard you say many times about living with native people. It must have been a heckuva an experience!!! Can you elaborate on your experiences with them and what you learned? Where was it? What environment and terrain?
It's invaluable stuff and I'd love to have it shared here on the forums. Got any pix we can see?

Best,

~Brian.

18 years ago I lived on a native reservation for near 6 months. the tribal band will remain nameless however. I will have to dig up some pics and scan them for a post. I will start a new thead when I get it all sorted.
It was a life changing experience. Funny this should come up, I am looking to have another native sabbatical sometime soon. I need that earth connnection again.

Good idea Bri.

Skam

 

[grobe]

18 years ago I lived on a native reservation for near 6 months

now i see where all of your "expertise" comes from. any other spectacular credentials??

 

[Ebbtide]

Knives same as other tools have benefits from higher quality, having better tools increases your ability just like having better clothes acts to help you handle the enviroment better.

-Cliff

Clifford, clifford, clifford.

To sum up.
Buying the tool isn't enough.
An inexpensive tool with knowledge is better that an expensive one with no knowledge.
An inexpensive tool is better than none.
It's what's in your head that will save you, not what's in your hand.

It's pointless to continue.
It's so far from the beginning and off on so many tangents, I no longer have the desire to continue.
I've run out of ways to rephrase the same thought in hopes that you'd understand.
I think you actually agreed with me, but I can no longer be sure.

So instead of muddying up the forum with me repeating myself + or - a million times I shall leave this to the experts.

I'm off to build a shelter without my mora.
Around here a good cardboard box won't be hard to find.
And I've got my subway grate all picked out.
With a dumpster nearby to forage from.

 

[Myakka]

"It's pointless to continue"

Ebbtide,
How true, sad, but true.

 

[ras]

An inexpensive tool with knowledge is better that an expensive one with no knowledge.
An inexpensive tool is better than none.
It's what's in your head that will save you, not what's in your hand.

One of the things in my head is the knowledge that a job is easier with the correct tool. Backwoods training and experience is a good thing, but quality tools are also a good thing; the two are not mutually exclusive. With the exception of those rare individuals who live a certain lifestyle in order to sell books, I have found that many folks with experience tend to gravitate toward higher quality tools, rather than toward cheap/no tools. Personally, if I'm going to carry something into the backwoods, I'd rather it be quality weight than cheap weight.

The knives I've had through the years have shown improved quality. Functionally though, they're very similar. OTOH a couple Mora type knives are on order just so I can see what the fuss is. At $11 it's no big deal if they don't work, besides I've still got a Fehrman for back-up Some folks think highly of the thin blades and if they work better for some jobs, super. I'll keep an open mind.

That said, comparing a Frosts 4" Mora to a Fehrman Final Judgement is rather foolish, however if I'm out for a hike I won't be carrying the FFJ, it's just too much for a stroll. Even compared to the much smaller Fehrman Peace Maker the Mora seems a little wanting though and the FPM could easily be on my belt. It's one of the smaller Fehrman knives and it's very capable.

I'm sure there are tasks well suited to a thin Mora blade, but that doesn't mean a Mora is a better knife for building a survival shelter against the clock. The fact that a Mora can do a job doesn't mean it's the best tool. I've found that with knowledge and experience come the realization that better tools make necessary chores less taxing and carrying the weight is worth the effort.

 

[Ebbtide]

One of the things in my head is the knowledge that a job is easier with the correct tool. Backwoods training and experience is a good thing, but quality tools are also a good thing; the two are not mutually exclusive. With the exception of those rare individuals who live a certain lifestyle in order to sell books, I have found that many folks with experience tend to gravitate toward higher quality tools, rather than toward cheap/no tools. Personally, if I'm going to carry something into the backwoods, I'd rather it be quality weight than cheap weight.

I'm in total agreement.


At one point, the paragraph that you quoted went on with
"A quality tool is better than an inexpensive one.
Quality is not a substitute for knowledge."

And some more stuff that isn't worth going into.
I was going to rant about being partially quoted, checked and those two lines weren't there
I wrote that post over and over with copies and pastes and lost that part.
By all means buy the best you can afford.

 

[TLM]

By all means buy the best you can afford.

Quite so but the best in technical sense certainly is not the most expensive one.

TLM

Somewhere is the "good enough", I would be after that.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Buying the tool isn't enough.

No one is actually contending this point. This is simply a straw man arguement you made up because it is easy to negate.

An inexpensive tool with knowledge is better that an expensive one with no knowledge.

Depends on the enviroment.

Around here it gets so cold that you get instant exposure without proper clothing, and I mean instant, it doesn't take a minute, they will close down schools for example because just being outside is problematic. An individual will all the experience in the world without the proper tools will die in a very short period of time. An individual with far less experience, or even none, but with proper tools (clothing in this case) has a *FAR* greater chance of survival.

Or considering just simple bushcraft, take a very skilled individual with a Mora and a very inexperienced person with a high end axe. Now ask both of them to remove a piece of deadfall. It takes very little experience if any for the guy with the axe to outperform the mora weilding guy *many* times over. Even the worse guys I have seen with an axe, no experience at all could cut a tree far better than someone with a mora.

And no this isn't an arguement that you should buy really high quality tools and then forget experience, again no one is advocating this point, it is a made up arguement. I have always advocated using your knives (and gear in general) for lots of reasons. No matter what your experience level, any new knife you get will have its own advantages/detractions, you don't use all knives the same, they all have things they excell at and things they don't do well, you have to use them to find out the most you can about them.

-Cliff

 

[Ebbtide]

And no this isn't an arguement that you should buy really high quality tools and then forget experience, again no one is advocating this point, it is a made up arguement. I have always advocated using your knives (and gear in general) for lots of reasons. No matter what your experience level, any new knife you get will have its own advantages/detractions, you don't use all knives the same, they all have things they excell at and things they don't do well, you have to use them to find out the most you can about them.

A. It is not an arguement. I do not come here to argue.
It is a valid point that applies to the people who come here to learn.
The 'experts' already know this. Not everyone who reads this forum qualifies as 'expert'.
"You can't buy experience"
Does that sum up what I'm trying to convey?

B. I'm glad that you agree with me on the different tools for different jobs.
And that you have to use your gear to get to know it.

Are we done yet?

 

[scalesandtails]

This is great! Keep going!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

A. It is not an arguement.

Arguement has two basic definations, one refers to a discourse where people are contending an issue, the other simply refers to the actual facts/logic presented. Assuming you have some point you are trying to make it is an arguement, even if no one contends it.

...different tools for different jobs.
And that you have to use your gear to get to know it.

I have been saying that for over ten years now, the whole point of the reviews is to allow better knife selection, which knife is best for which task. It is experience with the knives that leads to the ability to make these decisions.

Even the guys who strongly recommend larger knives, like Skammar, do not recommend simply buying the knife and then you are done. Getting out and using the knife has always been integral to your abilities and the abilities of the knife.

They are just tools, some people are more polarized about them than other gear. My brother will use pretty much any knife but is very particular about hammers and has as many of them as I do knives. Some of them are also very expensive and he would not recommend the lower quality ones to someone who could afford the better ones.

Of course having a better hammer doesn't make you a better carpenter, however if you are a carpenter and you have to do framing for 10 hours, then having a hammer which is more efficient will make a large influence on both your productivity and your inclination towards joint injuries ten years down the line.

It is just a gear selection question, inherently no different than any other and the basic selection process is simply buy the best you can afford and learn how to use it as best you can. For some, both of these can be radically different. Some people living in a crowded city with a 10-12 hour workday and little holidays have lots of money but no free time.

Others live in a very rural area and can walk ten minutes from their house and be next to a large river, ocean, pond and wilderness for which you can walk hours (days even) and never see another person. You use what you have available, some people have lots of money and little time, others have lots of time and little money. The really lucky people have both.

-Cliff

 

[s002cjs]

This question is not only about a Mora but smaller knives in general. There's always the debate of the merits of a small knife vs a large knife. It seems that one could do most things with a large knife that you could do with a small one, though maybe not as well, but not in reverse. My question is, in the wilderness with only a Mora type knife (read small knife), without a saw or other implement, what type of protective shelter can you build. I don't see how you could chop poles or branches...

Back to the original topic, and tying in what many have said throughout the thread...I believe it depends on the situation, which you can't always choose.

I believe knowledge and experience will be your two best bets in this (and in all) survival situations [Please note: this is not a claim to have either sufficient knowledge or experience. I have more than the average person, but likely less than many on here]. If you've got the big knife, by all means, make the shelter that's easiest and takes the least effort. If you've got a small knife, your shelter will be different. Gathered fallen branches, debris, breaking poles in the Y of a tree, finding a hollow spot...whatever it takes. Try it with both. You'll gain knowledge and experience.

A similar thought I have is of making a fire. If I'm stuck and have a Bic lighter, I'm going to make fire pretty easily. If I'm down to my pocket ferro/magnesium stick, it's a little more effort. If my pockets were dumped and I've got only the clothes on my back, I may be spending a cold night since my favored bow-drill method (of which my skill is still minimal) would take time to assemble. As with the knives, knowledge and experience with each type of tool would be helpful, and since you can rarely choose your circumstances in a true survival situation (which personally is my purpose in looking at this sort of question), that's what I'm still shooting for.

 

[Ebbtide]

Now are we done?

 

[Brian Jones]

Nah, Ebbtide, not yet.

I see some arguments form certain parties about the efficiency of larger blades for certain tasks, which is true, however, I also see some folks here advocating ONE WAY ("this is the way I teach") -- but it is only one way.

Knowledge is primary, the actual tools are secondary. Calling a folder absolutely useless as a survival knife seems silly: if you were in a an emergency survival situation, and only had a good locking folder, that implies you'd just throw your folder in the water and not even bother using it. I'd be willing to bet that anyone on this board who got stuck in a survival situation would suddenly become extremely grateful to even have a small safety razor blade!

Skammer, this is meant with respect and to help:

You are a good contributor to this board, even though you get too crusty for my taste sometimes. Your posts are "big knife centered" and I agree with what you teach based on the use of a large blade, but those technqiues are merely a subset of the overall survival scenario. I get confused because you say on one hand you let people try different sizes and brands of knives yet you also say folders and others are useless in a survival situation. So, when you say, "Folders/small knives are absolutely useless for survival," you imply that nobody can do it, yet many have done it, including me. Think hard on this. But the main thing has been your combative attitude, which is unacceptable. To open minds, you have to first open hearts, and when you denigrate others with an attitude that implies that they are just stupid and don't "listen," you close anyone's mind to what you might have to say.

For all here: The true mark of an expert is someone who has been learning and GROWING IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE. The "growing" part is the key. The best teachers consider themselves perpetual students until they die. Yelling at everyone about it won't convince them otherwise. If any one of us wants more credibility here, then they might try a different style of posting (like being open and interactive rather than just taking a stance and getting pissy when folks disagree).

What's more important: the ego, or the knowledge? The ego dies with the person either way, so in this business, protecting our egos at the expense of learning will get us killed.

I bring this up with respect, not angrily or antagonistically. Skammer, you do, in fact, contribute many good things, and you certainly stimulate passionate debate with your posting style!!!

Peace,

Brian.

 

[skammer]

Brian,

Points taken. A grain of salt is needed with everyones posts in every forum, its the way it works. I never said "you cant survive with" a small blade and if you read all my posts you'd know this. I actually teach survival with all blade sizes and none. The large blade usually comes to the forefront of utility during a course. I find a small blade useful for some things but not much and many in the know agree with this fact. This offends small blade lovers and this is unfortunate but alas is not my problem. There is not one way to look at most things and the fact you or anyone else may disagree with some of my phylosophy is what makes us all different not right or wrong but different.

This fact is not lost on many survival instructors including Tom Brown, Ron Hood and Greg Davenport to name a few. If people want to debate large blade merits then maybe they should try them from now on .

As far as my crustyness goes, well thats just me I guess , I try not to get personal and rarely if ever use the phrase "YOU ARE A". I take much more than I give, maybe some emails need to be sent to those individauls.

I do run a business and have family that has nothing to do with this forum and find it better to keep an arms length as do MOST people so this should be of no surprise. If I want to talk to people up front I will e-mail them personally and I do.

I guess its up to people to decide if I am legit or not, fankly I dont care one way or the other. Its a "PUBLIC!" forum, half the posters here could be inmates for crying out loud. I need not prove anything to anyone for any reason, I already paid my way in life. 99% of people here are not up front about who they really are and if what they claim is true and I am fine with that and take people at face value. I may not agree sometimes but I sure as hell assume what they say is correct.

While we are at it anyone who posts here should provide a detailed resume with references. This is nuts for a public forum I think you'd agree. I assume you are qualified to do what you do and take it at face value, I expect similar.

My advice and information speak for itself, agree or diagree its a free country. Credibility is what one chooses to believe, if I have non so be it I loose nosleep over it. I post to many forums under many names and never had credibility come up becasue its a public forum and a grain of salt. People must filter the noise and if I am deemed noise then so be it. I am not out to offend but to pass on some basic information and to correct some missinformed beliefs IMO.
You are the moderator Brian, at the end of the day whatever you decide goes.

Skam

 

[Brian Jones]

Skam,

Thanks for not taking offense at my message, and thanks for a very thoughtful reply. You are always welcome here. If I remember right (and my memory can get sketchy), aren't you on the East Coast somewhere around Maryland?

I get down to Va Beach and NC a bit for work, and pass through. If you ever want to get together and hang, practice skills when I am passing through, lemme know.

My credentials are available all over this forum if you search, and elsewhere, BTW, but I do not claim to be an expert in anything, actually. On the forum, and in real life, everything I say and do is under my real name. As I learn from others, and add it to my knowledge base, many ask me to work with them. If you want references to my abilities, etc., you can ask folks like Ron Hood (if you have his videos, I am in Vol 11 solo-survival.), CJ Caracci, multiple police departments in many states, Army Mountain Warfare School, and many others.

You are right in that you do not need to post your credentials, I offered the suggestion so that, if these discussions are important to you, it might help you get your message across...

...and I agree -- forums and the internet are basically to be taken with a big grain overall!



Best,

~Brian.

 

[skammer]

Reread my edited post.


Skam

 

[Brian Jones]

Just replied to your edit by editing my reply...damn this feels redundant and confusing! LOL!

Will drop you a line.

~B.

 

[Myakka]

Thank you Brain for your post, I agree with you 100%. I really enjoy this forum, but lately I feel its been getting away from sharing ideas, and moving toward "it's my way or the highway".

Thanks for speaking up.

Ron

 

[Brian Jones]

Skam, you edited out your email before I could copy. Drop me a PM here when you get a chance -- couldn't contact you that way...