Bushcraft Knife Challenge results!!!

[kgd]

Ken, you must be a research scientist! Nice analysis and explanation.

It would be interesting to see how these knives would group with more testers, but I realize this was a ton of work to do. We always want more data, right?

Yes, I am a and thanks.

It's less about what my intuition tells me and more on what my notes and the hours of video I took during the tests tell me. I go back to the video on certain knives where I see a big difference in results and can't figure it out. Like one of the testers gave Koyote a low score on whittling, when I used the knife last and that thing cuts like a freaking champ. I think the tester was trying to whittle with the spine..

Well that is something that a stats test can't fix no matter what Tony. It is also why the scores can't in themselves be taken too seriously. As mentioned above, we could always use more data from more reviewers. Also, even though most tests are given a score out of 5 it should be understood that this is still qualitative data because the actual score given for a particular test typically reflects a subjective call. When Brian Andrews did his review, he did have a few direct empirical measures like when he took the average of the bevel width at five spots on each knife using a micrometer or when he determined the amount of pressure required to push cut a standard sized thread using a rigged up postal scale. Now Brian, bless his heart, is an engineer and those guys are total FREAKS about quantitative data

On the hand, your points raised above are completely valid. Marcelo, B. Mike and yourself not only provided a set of scores for us to work with, but you also provided us with a rich narrative of the testing experience in your individual descriptions. These narratives are as valid, and surely, far more valid than the scores themselves. I sort of think of the scores like the meta-reviews of RottenTomatoes, that movie review site that compiles all the reviews on a given movie. Gives each review a score usually using the 1 popcorn out of 5 type thing a reviewer would give, then compiles these reviews across all the reviewers. In the end you get the tomatometer that tells you if many reviewers liked a movie or didn't like the movie. This provides some good information in itself, but if I'm really interested in seeing a movie, I will then pick a few favorite reviewers from their list and go and read their review directly. This gets to the next point of why we need that narrative as well.

If the contest results were simply posting up the numbers and ranks of the knives without that narration and the awesome pictures, this thread would not have received the 9000+ views and massive amount of interest. Because in the end, we have traveled this journey with the three of you. Even the long time it took to get it completed forced us to share in your struggles to get this immense job done. It was a hell of a ride, more so for the three of you, but we all got to live vicariously through it via this thread. So the scores are one thing. The community of makers, contest submissions, volunteer time, eye candy and pictures of Rick's head on Tony's body hugging his family were what made this exercise so successful. So again, Kudos to you guys!

 

[KuRUpTD]

Thanks for the in-depth analysis Ken - and although I have no idea what you're talking about I still found it to be both fascinating and edumacational :thumbup:

 

[Fletcher Knives]

Very cool. I'm extremely happy with the results. Makes me wish I had sent in a more recent knife though. If one from the second batch did that well, a new one would have done awesome. Thanks again guys.

 

[j williams]

Lots of work.....A ton of work. On the part of the smiths, the testers.....wow. Great job EVERYONE. Thank you for taking the time. :thumbup::thumbup:

Rick......I need to holla at you for a blade sometime in the future. Im blown away at your talent. Your another one that I respect for your skills in the woods, and in the shop. :thumbup: Your stuff(especially leatherwork) has been a source of inspiration for me in my own feeble attempts at crafting stuff.

 

[Marcelo Cantu]

Ken thanks for that analysis. I had to read it twice to truly understand it. I honestly think that the narrative reviews create a more complete picture. There is a factor that came to my mind as we devised the scoring system. Initially we started with a narrower grading system of 1 - 4, then we expanded to 5, then added half increments to express differences in performance in each category. The factor or rather issue that arises is that in certain categories it was very easy to have an absolute top score like in fit/finish - a perfectly finished knife gets a five. However in other categories (at least for me), the grading system scored knives relative to each other as in push cuts or whittling, where as there is no absolute per se, the best in this group got the top score. I don't know if that makes any difference in the statistical analysis. Oh yeah BTW, five minutes to Wapner

 

[Big Mike]

Yo Ken, ...very interesting analysis my friend.

Basically, there was a very good correlation between the overall score generated by Marcelo and Tony and that generated by Big Mike and Tony.

That's always good to see, it shows that we're all in the same ballpark.

Tony and Marcelo were more often in agreement with one another compared to Tony and Big Mike.

That does not suprise me either. Being Tony and Marcelo often tested together and used the same test materials. My testing, though uniform from knife to knife, varied a bit from the methods and materials that Tony and Marcelo where using.

It's less about what my intuition tells me and more on what my notes and the hours of video I took during the tests tell me. I go back to the video on certain knives where I see a big difference in results and can't figure it out. Like one of the testers gave Koyote a low score on whittling, when I used the knife last and that thing cuts like a freaking champ. I think the tester was trying to whittle with the spine.

Interesting comment Tony, but as I mention in my comments, it was the handle (not the blade) on the knife in question that proved to be the problem in extended use, after about a half hour of whittling I had cramping issues, while in all other chores the handle worked well for me; the paradox is a matter of ergonomics, not a precived difference in how the blade cut.


The beauty of Ken's analysis is that it does show how close many of the knives are to the top; though different testers would have had different results, I believe that the same group of knives would still come out on top.




Big Mike

 

[Big Mike]

There is a factor that came to my mind as we devised the scoring system. Initially we started with a narrower grading system of 1 - 4, then we expanded to 5, then added half increments to express differences in performance in each category. The factor or rather issue that arises is that in certain categories it was very easy to have an absolute top score like in fit/finish - a perfectly finished knife gets a five. However in other categories (at least for me), the grading system scored knives relative to each other as in push cuts or whittling, where as there is no absolute per se, the best in this group got the top score. I don't know if that makes any difference in the statistical analysis.

Yes, the scoring system was changed during the testing, twice in fact.

The Original system was 1 to 5 points for all the catagories except the performance catagory which had seven sub-catagories worth 3 points each.

Later T & M decided to change the performance sub-catagories to 4 points each.

Of course once I finished re-calculating my score they changed it to 5 points for everything including the performance sub-catagories.

In the end these changes put more weight on the performance of each knife, and we all agreed that was the most important part of the equation.


Would the results have been different with the different scoring system? No doubt.

But, as I stated earlier, the same group of knives would still be on top.


Having a structure to the scoring kept all the testers on a level playing field, but it did require setting up a points system based on a notion of what a "bushcraft" knife need to do; without the defined points system the testers resuslts would have been different, and the more subjective aspects would probably have carried more weight.


I think the testing worked well and gave us a very fair platform to evaluate the entries.

I think a similar system (i.e., multiple testers and a fixed set of tasks) is a great way to evaluate any set of knives.




Big Mike

 

[tonym]

Interesting comment Tony, but as I mention in my comments, it was the handle (not the blade) on the knife in question that proved to be the problem in extended use, after about a half hour of whittling I had cramping issues, while in all other chores the handle worked well for me; the paradox is a matter of ergonomics, not a precived difference in how the blade cut.

Big Mike

No Mike, we went over this before we started the tests in Marcelo's drive way. We had separate categories for "Comfort/Ergos" and "Control". The reason we had them separated from the performance test was to not let personal opinion take the place of actual performance. If a knife whittled good, it whittled good. Leave comfort out of it and score that separate. Giving a Knife a low mark in whittling makes it sound like it was unable to whittle well. Just as giving a knife a high score in whittling only because the handle was comfortable for you is not giving an accurate score for that task.

I thought we were clear on the scoring and categories, but I guess not. My mistake.

Edit. I reread this and I sound like I am upset. I'm not Mike.:thumbup: It's all good and like we said the scoring should not be taking too seriously. The reviews are more important than a number.

Now about your Fiddleback knife that I still have. What's it worth to you???

 

[Big Mike]

We had separate categories for "Comfort/Ergos" and "Control". The reason we had them separated from the performance test was to not let personal opinion take the place of actual performance. If a knife whittled good, it whittled good. Leave comfort out of it and score that separate. Giving a Knife a low mark in whittling makes it sound like it was unable to whittle well. Just as giving a knife a high score in whittling only because the handle was comfortable for you is not giving an accurate score for that task.

I understand your point Tony, but you've missed mine.

Overall the knife in question worked well for me both in terms of "comfort/ergos" and "control", it was only after about a half hour of whitting that my hand started to cramp-up, it was the meaty part of my hand away from the thumb that caused enough pain to make me stop.

It was the only knife in the test that did this to me, and it was only during this prolonged session whittling hard maple that I has this problem.

This knife might have worked better at this task for you and Marcelo (and I don't know how much time you spent whittling with each knife, I generally spent about an hour working with each knife); regardless of how well the blade might cut the wood, there is more to whittling then that, if a knife hurts to use for a given task I'm not going to give it high points; I stand by my scoring.




Big Mike



PS - OH yeah, my Fiddleback, ...you just needed it for a quick video,

...a month later I still can't get you to give it back. :jerkit:

 

[tonym]

I understand your point Tony, but you've missed mine.

Overall the knife in question worked well for me both in terms of "comfort/ergos" and "control", it was only after about a half hour of whiting that my hand started to cramp-up, it was the meaty part of my hand away from the thumb that caused enough pain to make me stop.

It was the only knife in the test that did this to me, and it was only during this prolonged session whittling hard maple that I has this problem.

This knife might have worked better at this task for you and Marcelo (and I don't know how much time you spent whittling with each knife, I generally spent about an hour working with each knife); regardless of how well the blade might cut the wood, there is more to whittling then that, if a knife hurts to use for a given task I'm not going to give it high points; I stand by my scoring.

:

If your hand cramped during use, it may have been due to you over working your hand. Not to mention, that is a comfort issue, not a whittling issue. I am glad you are standing by your score, however we agreed to judge the knives the same and it's clear you were on your own little trip.

PS - OH yeah, my Fiddleback, ...you just needed it for a quick video,

...a month later I still can't get you to give it back. :jerkit:

That's funny.

 

[HikingMano]

Thank you to all the makers and reviewers :thumbup: And Ken, great treatment of the data! Thanks for putting that together for us. Very interesting indeed :thumbup::thumbup:

We should do a smaller scale contest and treat it like a passaround. Take a few knives, create a solid set of metrics for uniform evaluation, and send them around to a decent number of folks. It'd be interesting to see if the observed trends hold up with a larger set.

 

[kgd]

Email sent pot stirror.

Oh yeah!!!!!!!!!When I stir the pot, I make sure I get my hips right into it. By the time I'm done stirring, its usually a jumble of gobbly gook
Why do I feel like the Joker on Dark Knight?

 

[gomle]

Nicely stirred KGD.

 

[gunknifenut]

Look science dudes (just kidding Kevin, you da man),
I had fun, and really, I could care less what any three of you think of my knife...I happen to think I am on to something with the design...you got to play with the proto..the first step in the process so to speak. Overall, I think the knives that "won" should have...no doubt in my mind. I got a chance to handle 2 of them, and they were freaking awesome.
Overall, I have to say, that the scoring and reviews are just individual opinions...nothing and no one is perfect, so scoring will vary. My personal knife is to my taste..I also love Mora's, so go figure.
During the last days of the testing, Tony and I talked, and then he posted the video of my knife destroying oak...I knew it would destroy anything..as far as battoning goes. My only problem with a 5 point system for scoring is that if my knife is "the best" for battoning, and gets a 5, when another knife gets a five..well, my knife really isnt the best anymore..as far as scoring goes anyways. (mikes scoring for my knife aside)(EDIT: I was using my knife as an example for the scoring system at hand. I would think one knife cut better than the rest..with a small margin, but still better.)
this doesnt really matter, ...but its something I saw in the way the knives were scored, and thought, "is there a more accurate method" for scoring?? I only ask this, cause I dont know anything about scoring or graphs and stuff...I am just a hammer swinger after all.

Oh, and Mike, what did you try to batton my knife through?? a 200 year old iron wood tree or something..thats not fair, when the other knives got pine...LOL.

I think that the most interesting thing about all of this is that the highest scorers were the very knives I picked through the photo's. I wonder how many others here have this same idea...I mean, is it a purely asthetics thing, or is it that a better looking knife also works betters cause we all instinctually "like" good knives...?? Anyways..I had a blast..and I think the top guys are the top guys no matter who tests what..they were just that good.
GKN


EDIT: (anchor man voice..."Its science")

 

[koyote]

Tony, Mike- this actually makes something I was wondering about a bit more clear. Don't get mad at each other, though!

I went WAY the hell out into left field on my handle design. I think it's something I want to mess with more, but with closer to my standard 3/4 7/8 tyhickness than the 1+ inch I did.

The only actual question, and it's fine if this should be addressed in PMs, did either of you use the index finger on the guard for whittling? MY design practice included that (hence the funky overdone guard).

Just curious

 

[koyote]

soooo....whats next (insert innocently inquisitive voice)? Choppers...folders...some other interesting form of knife I have yet to learn about, but absolutely must have?


no but seriously, like i said earlier this was a great thread. do you guys have any ideas/plans/desires to do another project like this?


~edit~ if you do decide that you want to undertake something like this again, and there is anything I can do to help please let me know.

the camp kitchen knife! ONE KNIFE to RULE the CHUCKWAGON.


and multiple testers. I love the multiple testers thing. Just, next time, lets put kgd in charge of handling the scoring data from the get go. He's weird, he actually enjoys this stuff. (Okay, so do I, but I want to make knives)

 

[kgd]

Look science dudes (just kidding Kevin, you da man),
I had fun, and really, I could care less what any three of you think of my knife...I happen to think I am on to something with the design...you got to play with the proto..the first step in the process so to speak. Overall, I think the knives that "won" should have...no doubt in my mind. I got a chance to handle 2 of them, and they were freaking awesome.

Next time Gene, man up and try not to create a knife that is both good a batoning and super sharp at the same time. Clearly you have it in for statistical tests and logical inferences based on tried and true concepts of edge geometry and spine thickness. Lets try to crawl back into the box now shall we????

 

[gunknifenut]

Next time Gene, man up and try not to create a knife that is both good a batoning and super sharp at the same time. Clearly you have it in for statistical tests and logical inferences based on tried and true concepts of edge geometry and spine thickness. Lets try to crawl back into the box now shall we????

Look, I hear you talking, but I have no idea what you are sayin..LOL.
Man, I have been using the proto since it came home..A LOT, and it is a very tough knife, but it isnt as good at carving as I like..like I said, I like Mora's. Now as far as how well it performs..well, my opinions are my own. I will say I have down very bad things to it..and it likes it..I look at it and imagine a Busse ate a Bark River and shit this thing out...
But thats for another day at the bar.
Tony is right..cause he's the man, 3/16" would be perfect for this knife..when you are right, you are right. So I like many here, am getting better because we asked for honest opinions of our knives..and thats whats so cool about all this. I already have 3 new design tweaks in store for this knife..and I am as excited as I have EVER been about making knives...thats really cool for me..cause I am a grumpy bastard.
Overall, I am happy about the whole thing..just like the last competition..its just very cool to see what people will come up with when asked a specific task to perform..its always so damn different. Really cool actually.

 

[rpn]

"I look at it and imagine a Busse ate a Bark River and shit this thing out.."

Best line of the whole test! LMAO! :thumbup:

 

[Big Mike]

Tony, Mike- this actually makes something I was wondering about a bit more clear. Don't get mad at each other, though!

I went WAY the hell out into left field on my handle design. I think it's something I want to mess with more, but with closer to my standard 3/4 7/8 tyhickness than the 1+ inch I did.

The only actual question, and it's fine if this should be addressed in PMs, did either of you use the index finger on the guard for whittling? MY design practice included that (hence the funky overdone guard).

Just curious

Yo Christof, Tony and I are just busting stones, as is the norm aroud these parts.


You know that I know your knives, and appreciate your handles, this one was just too wide toward the butt end to allow me to close my hand enough be be comfortable for long term high effort use. I do have big hands, but they are also very meaty, especially down in the heal of the palm. I think it was the combination of the widening handle intersecting a part of my hand that actually had less of a grip circumfrence that caused an inbalance. In an effort to apply the pressuse I required with the front part of the handle I was over doing it on the back part of the handle, if that makes any sense.





I did have this happen once before when testing a Bowie knife with oversized sheep horn scales, it work for a while, but the large diameter of the rear of the handle created the same type of cramping in extended use.

Just one Big Fellow's opinion, skinny guys might not have the hand mass to see this type of problem.



And to answer your question, yes, I do use my thumb on the guard for some whittling tasks.




Big Mike