Busse and/or CPK

TRfromMT

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So even though this may not be a std carothers blade, this blade was sent to me directly from carothers and it had the deltaHT. So unless you are telling me that there is a difference in the 3v used pre HT, this is carothers delta3V and it does apply. This is exactly how it happened. So not sure what you are implying as for not being his HT. As it is. Regardless of who ground the blade.
For the sake of this thread and comparing knives (plural) available from Busse and CPK (only), imagine if that sample blade had been sent to you directly from Jerry Busse himself with his heat treat protocol. Would you purport it may not be a std Busse blade without further comment?
 

Cobalt

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For the sake of this thread and comparing knives (plural) available from Busse and CPK (only), imagine if that sample blade had been sent to you directly from Jerry Busse himself with his heat treat protocol. Would you purport it may not be a std Busse blade without further comment?

Here are the facts, and there is no need to imagine. Carothers sent me that knife for me to test his delta HT. Regardless of who ground the blade, he felt that it represented his HT. If someone sent Busse a blade made out of his INFI stock and he HT'd it, sharpened it and sent it to me himself, it would represent his HT. CPM3V is made by Crucible. Regardless of who ground the blade, the steel came from the same source. The HT was done after it was ground and sent to me by the same person. I did not get it from a third party. This is all fact. So yes, that blade REPRESENTS DeltaHT by Carothers, like it or not.
 

Casinostocks

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So even though this may not be a std carothers blade, this blade was sent to me directly from carothers and it had the deltaHT. So unless you are telling me that there is a difference in the 3v used pre HT, this is carothers delta3V and it does apply. This is exactly how it happened. So not sure what you are implying as for not being his HT. As it is. Regardless of who ground the blade.

This is what I am saying:

That scaleless blade used in your test is NOT a CPK or a Carothers knife as the name was commonly known prior to adapting the trade name Carothers Performance Knives (CPK). I never meant to say that a test knife was snuck in there under the auspices of being a Carothers and I would feel badly if you think that I was implying that. That test blade is clearly an S! product but it is not entirely inconceivable that it may have been redirected from Nathan's workshop if it was indeed one of Nathan's own test blades originally sent to him by S! or even by Peter's, although I would personally find that quite a bit perplexing.

Regarding D3V: by all accounts a Nathan developed Delta HT is a Delta HT. I don't think that there there good, better and best versions of it but Nathan had also said in the past that there was only one person at Peter's who'd handle the Carothers D3V HT orders. Additionally there were some tweaks to the HT before there was a final version stamped as Delta 3V, meaning that even the Carothers products stamped as 3V prior to 2016 benefitted from Nathan's tweaked HT which was specifically developed for knives as opposed to the industry standard HT for CPM-3V. There are many posts by Nathan detailing as to why he started tweaking the standard HT specifically for this steel to be optimized for knife edge stability, toughness and strength applications.

Lastly (again from Nathan's own posts) Nathan sharpens the edge on his D3Vs by going through a very slow, careful and arduous process when using a belt sander. It has been said that it takes about one man-hour to finish up an edge on an average sized CPK or 2! Case in point, while the HT may be the same the finished product with the D3V may be something quite different. I had heard of some burned edges when they finished at the other guy's workshop.
 

Cobalt

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This is what I am saying:

That scaleless blade used in your test is NOT a CPK or a Carothers knife as the name was commonly known prior to adapting the trade name Carothers Performance Knives (CPK). I never meant to say that a test knife was snuck in there under the auspices of being a Carothers and I would feel badly if you think that I was implying that. That test blade is clearly an S! product but it is not entirely inconceivable that it may have been redirected from Nathan's workshop if it was indeed one of Nathan's own test blades originally sent to him by S! or even by Peter's, although I would personally find that quite a bit perplexing.

Regarding D3V: by all accounts a Nathan developed Delta HT is a Delta HT. I don't think that there there good, better and best versions of it but Nathan had also said in the past that there was only one person at Peter's who'd handle the Carothers D3V HT orders. Additionally there were some tweaks to the HT before there was a final version stamped as Delta 3V, meaning that even the Carothers products stamped as 3V prior to 2016 benefitted from Nathan's tweaked HT which was specifically developed for knives as opposed to the industry standard HT for CPM-3V. There are many posts by Nathan detailing as to why he started tweaking the standard HT specifically for this steel to be optimized for knife edge stability, toughness and strength applications.

Lastly (again from Nathan's own posts) Nathan sharpens the edge on his D3Vs by going through a very slow, careful and arduous process when using a belt sander. It has been said that it takes about one man-hour to finish up an edge on an average sized CPK or 2! Case in point, while the HT may be the same the finished product with the D3V may be something quite different. I had heard of some burned edges when they finished at the other guy's workshop.

So, since this blade came to me from him directly after several personal phone calls and he claimed it to be his finishing including his HT, it did not matter to neither him nor I who originally ground the blade. He wanted destructive testing to be done on his blades to test his HT. He put the 18 dps on the blade himself and I noted that in 2016. That's really all I can say. From what I am reading, then you are basically saying what I am in the sense that this is a 2016 blade with DHT and he put the 18dps edge that he likes on it.
 

betzner

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This is what I am saying:

That scaleless blade used in your test is NOT a CPK or a Carothers knife as the name was commonly known prior to adapting the trade name Carothers Performance Knives (CPK). I never meant to say that a test knife was snuck in there under the auspices of being a Carothers and I would feel badly if you think that I was implying that. That test blade is clearly an S! product but it is not entirely inconceivable that it may have been redirected from Nathan's workshop if it was indeed one of Nathan's own test blades originally sent to him by S! or even by Peter's, although I would personally find that quite a bit perplexing.

Regarding D3V: by all accounts a Nathan developed Delta HT is a Delta HT. I don't think that there there good, better and best versions of it but Nathan had also said in the past that there was only one person at Peter's who'd handle the Carothers D3V HT orders. Additionally there were some tweaks to the HT before there was a final version stamped as Delta 3V, meaning that even the Carothers products stamped as 3V prior to 2016 benefitted from Nathan's tweaked HT which was specifically developed for knives as opposed to the industry standard HT for CPM-3V. There are many posts by Nathan detailing as to why he started tweaking the standard HT specifically for this steel to be optimized for knife edge stability, toughness and strength applications.

Lastly (again from Nathan's own posts) Nathan sharpens the edge on his D3Vs by going through a very slow, careful and arduous process when using a belt sander. It has been said that it takes about one man-hour to finish up an edge on an average sized CPK or 2! Case in point, while the HT may be the same the finished product with the D3V may be something quite different. I had heard of some burned edges when they finished at the other guy's workshop.
Said in 15 words or less - sounds like the heat treat is the point of all this, not the maker. How long much you beat the horse??
 

Casinostocks

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So, since this blade came to me from him directly after several personal phone calls and he claimed it to be his finishing including his HT, it did not matter to neither him nor I who originally ground the blade. He wanted destructive testing to be done on his blades to test his HT. He put the 18 dps on the blade himself and I noted that in 2016. That's really all I can say. From what I am reading, then you are basically saying what I am in the sense that this is a 2016 blade with DHT and he put the 18dps edge that he likes on it.
In such case, seems that you received an S! knife for the purpose of your testing with Nathan's grind own grind and blessings. To me, just by looking at the pics, your Busse knife faired a bit better in terms of visible edge damage without any catastrophic failure experienced by either knife. Are we good?
Said in 15 words or less - sounds like the heat treat is the point of all this, not the maker. How long much you beat the horse??
I disagree. The HT while crucial, is not all 100% of it. We both know this. Good to hear from you.
 
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Cobalt

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Said in 15 words or less - sounds like the heat treat is the point of all this, not the maker. How long much you beat the horse??
no kidding.

In such case, seems that you received an S! knife for the purpose of your testing with Nathan's grind own grind and blessings. To me, just by looking at the pics, your Busse knife faired a bit better in terms of visible edge damage without any catastrophic failure experienced by either knife. Are we good?
S! knife? Bull$hit. I think it is best for you to stop beating a dead horse
Let go of your bias. The test was not meant to denigrate any knife.
The point of that test as I said before wasn't to see which one took more damage, it was to see if they would fail by propagating a chip through the blade like what happened to the kabar. The extent of damage part is not relevant as they have different blade geometries and are likely at different Rc's, both of which effect the extent of damage. Both knives did great. I take issue with anyone saying that this does not represent carothers ability.
 

Nathan the Machinist

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This is what I am saying:

That scaleless blade used in your test is NOT a CPK or a Carothers knife as the name was commonly known prior to adapting the trade name Carothers Performance Knives (CPK). I never meant to say that a test knife was snuck in there under the auspices of being a Carothers and I would feel badly if you think that I was implying that. That test blade is clearly an S! product but it is not entirely inconceivable that it may have been redirected from Nathan's workshop if it was indeed one of Nathan's own test blades originally sent to him by S! or even by Peter's, although I would personally find that quite a bit perplexing.

Regarding D3V: by all accounts a Nathan developed Delta HT is a Delta HT. I don't think that there there good, better and best versions of it but Nathan had also said in the past that there was only one person at Peter's who'd handle the Carothers D3V HT orders. Additionally there were some tweaks to the HT before there was a final version stamped as Delta 3V, meaning that even the Carothers products stamped as 3V prior to 2016 benefitted from Nathan's tweaked HT which was specifically developed for knives as opposed to the industry standard HT for CPM-3V. There are many posts by Nathan detailing as to why he started tweaking the standard HT specifically for this steel to be optimized for knife edge stability, toughness and strength applications.

Lastly (again from Nathan's own posts) Nathan sharpens the edge on his D3Vs by going through a very slow, careful and arduous process when using a belt sander. It has been said that it takes about one man-hour to finish up an edge on an average sized CPK or 2! Case in point, while the HT may be the same the finished product with the D3V may be something quite different. I had heard of some burned edges when they finished at the other guy's workshop.

It doesn't take me an hour to sharpen a knife, lol....

We're pretty slow, five or ten minutes. Slower than most, but not that slow. A big double edged sword takes an hour.

I like Busse knives and I like Jerry quite a bit. He's a trailblazer in this industry and I can't think of anybody I'd rather be compared to. :thumbsup:

I sent Cobalt two samples from test blanks I was working with. Same steel, same basic geometry and hardness but one standard HT and one optimized HT. In my own testing of these samples in applications like carving hardwood and impacts on various media showed significantly less edge roll, micro chipping and loss of sharpness on the Delta protocol than the industry standard protocol and I wanted other people to see this. I wanted Cobalt to see the improvement we'd made to the edge stability in 3V and also to compare it to Infi (a gold standard of edge retention in rough use in a high toughness alloy). I had envisioned him cutting hardwood and looking at the edge under magnification before moving to the destructive tests but that's okay.
 

unwisefool

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It doesn't take me an hour to sharpen a knife, lol....

We're pretty slow, five or ten minutes. Slower than most, but not that slow. A big double edged sword takes an hour.

I like Busse knives and I like Jerry quite a bit. He's a trailblazer in this industry and I can't think of anybody I'd rather be compared to. :thumbsup:

I sent Cobalt two samples from test blanks I was working with. Same steel, same basic geometry and hardness but one standard HT and one optimized HT. In my own testing of these samples in applications like carving hardwood and impacts on various media showed significantly less edge roll, micro chipping and loss of sharpness on the Delta protocol than the industry standard protocol and I wanted other people to see this. I wanted Cobalt to see the improvement we'd made to the edge stability in 3V and also to compare it to Infi (a gold standard of edge retention in rough use in a high toughness alloy). I had envisioned him cutting hardwood and looking at the edge under magnification before moving to the destructive tests but that's okay.
Both you and Jerry are class acts and both make pretty amazing knives.
 

Casinostocks

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It doesn't take me an hour to sharpen a knife, lol....

We're pretty slow, five or ten minutes. Slower than most, but not that slow. A big double edged sword takes an hour.

I like Busse knives and I like Jerry quite a bit. He's a trailblazer in this industry and I can't think of anybody I'd rather be compared to. :thumbsup:

I sent Cobalt two samples from test blanks I was working with. Same steel, same basic geometry and hardness but one standard HT and one optimized HT. In my own testing of these samples in applications like carving hardwood and impacts on various media showed significantly less edge roll, micro chipping and loss of sharpness on the Delta protocol than the industry standard protocol and I wanted other people to see this. I wanted Cobalt to see the improvement we'd made to the edge stability in 3V and also to compare it to Infi (a gold standard of edge retention in rough use in a high toughness alloy). I had envisioned him cutting hardwood and looking at the edge under magnification before moving to the destructive tests but that's okay.

Originally I was going to say that it'd probably take two hours but I decided to give you a one hour discount :p
 

Xr6x

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I actually did a very hard test and posted the results somewhere several years back. I used a kabar as a test blade and it failed in a predictable way. No shame in that, as i expected the kabar to fail. However, the CPK and the Busse just kept on going and I stopped when the edges were so mashed that, there

MuVR3J9.jpg


and here are the busse and cpk knives after the
So in other words, get whichever you like the looks of best.
Not saying 1095cv is a match against D3v or Infi but at least you could have picked a KABAR made in the U.S.A. with 1095cv. Unfortunately that particular blade was not made in the U.S.A. Who knows what the steel is? KABAR’s made in the U.S. will have U.S.A. Etched right under the name. Carry on :thumbsup:
 
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Cobalt

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Not saying 1095cv is a match against D3v or Infi but at least you could have picked a KABAR made in the U.S.A. with 1095cv. Unfortunately that particular blade was not made in the U.S.A. Who knows what the steel is? KABAR’s made in the U.S. will have U.S.A. Etched right under the name. Carry on :thumbsup:

Yes, there is no doubt that a usa made version would have lasted longer, but I wanted to put something with repeatable results in there. No doubt that was unreasonably destructive test, so no one should rag on that knife for failing. Hammering on to steel rod with a hammer hitting the spine is not conducive to a blade surviving.
 

Cobalt

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It doesn't take me an hour to sharpen a knife, lol....

We're pretty slow, five or ten minutes. Slower than most, but not that slow. A big double edged sword takes an hour.

I like Busse knives and I like Jerry quite a bit. He's a trailblazer in this industry and I can't think of anybody I'd rather be compared to. :thumbsup:

I sent Cobalt two samples from test blanks I was working with. Same steel, same basic geometry and hardness but one standard HT and one optimized HT. In my own testing of these samples in applications like carving hardwood and impacts on various media showed significantly less edge roll, micro chipping and loss of sharpness on the Delta protocol than the industry standard protocol and I wanted other people to see this. I wanted Cobalt to see the improvement we'd made to the edge stability in 3V and also to compare it to Infi (a gold standard of edge retention in rough use in a high toughness alloy). I had envisioned him cutting hardwood and looking at the edge under magnification before moving to the destructive tests but that's okay.

Sorry bro, my intent was to prove to myself that 3v could actually withstand a fracture test. In the past that has not happened with early 3v customs I had. Your blade made me a believer in your HT.
 

SpyderPhreak

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I believe this is one of them

View attachment 1610628
I do believe you're right, it was indeed a Vex (Vexillarius), one of the original versions. I'm pretty sure the one in your photo is one of the more recent models made from SR-101. I could be wrong, but that doesn't quite look like what I recall the originals did. Changed my mind, I think that's one of the originals, just slightly modded being a custom shop.

Sorry bro, my intent was to prove to myself that 3v could actually withstand a fracture test. In the past that has not happened with early 3v customs I had. Your blade made me a believer in your HT.
These tests you did made me a believer in D3V as well. :cool: :thumbsup:

TBH, I was a little bit hesitant to get onboard with CPK given the S! debacle and the fact Nathan was involved in any way with that Guy (sorry Nathan, but that's the way it was; you've since more than proven to be a stand-up, good all-round dude who can be trusted). I had been watching CPK for some time, but was a little leery. That's certainly since changed.

I think this thread has been pretty fruitful overall, and shown that you really can't go wrong with a blade from either manufacturer. :thumbsup: 😁 There's a reason that these are the two main "production" makers I personally support. :cool:

Hats off to Nathan for entering the octagon with Jerry in <whatever> capacity.

Cobalt Cobalt ...you're a class act...respect to you too.
Agreed on all counts!
 
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Obviously the two brands are very different; but, they are both US made with proprietary steels, which is great

Propietary steels?
CPK are made with 3V and it's not a proprietary steel. Only the heat treatment is specific (Delta protocol).
And Busse are made with A8 Mod steel (called INFI by Busse) and it's not a propietary steel either.
 
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