Busse and/or CPK

ferider

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Propietary steels?
CPK are made with 3V and it's not a proprietary steel. Only the heat treatment is specific (Delta protocol).
And Busse are made with A8 Mod steel (called INFI by Busse) and it's not a propietary steel either.

CPM 3V. Soyons corrects, svp. :D
 

Cobalt

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Propietary steels?
CPK are made with 3V and it's not a proprietary steel. Only the heat treatment is specific (Delta protocol).
And Busse are made with A8 Mod steel (called INFI by Busse) and it's not a propietary steel either.

Actually, they are both A8 mod steels, lol. In actuality they both appear to be wood chipper steels. 8% chrome steel was heavily used for the wood chipper blades in the past. Probably no longer the case these days, but I have no clue.
 
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Actually, they are both A8 mod steels, lol.

???
A8 Mod and CPM 3V are not the same steel.

P8n6YRth.png


(edited to post a correct composition chart borrowed from zknives.com).
 
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Cobalt

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???
A8 Mod and CPM 3V are not the same steel.

DoyaycV.png

Yes, these days. Just like todays A8 mod is not the same as INFI either. A mistake on your wording as well.

However, in the 90's Tom Johanning used an A8 mod steel that had 8% chrome. And it was called A8 mod. I figured you were talking about that steel. I guess not.
 

ferider

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Idle Sunday morning thoughts on semantics :) .... :

Patrick brought up a good point, actually: it also popped up in another thread, where I said some of my fixed EDC had 3V steel, and I was corrected that - no, the CPK had Delta 3V.

Is a proprietary heat treat part of the "knife steel", or not ? I casually included it in post #4. A Chemist would say no.

Us knife enthusiasts, not so sure: For example, we all very much distinguish between 154CM and CPM 154, because we like the additional toughness. But: chemically, they are the same.

What say you ?
 

Cobalt

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Idle Sunday morning thoughts :) .... :

Patrick brought up a good point, actually: it also popped up in another thread, where I said some of my fixed EDC had 3V steel, and I was corrected that - no, the CPK had Delta 3V.

Is a special/proprietary heat treat part of the "knife steel", or not ? I casually included it in post #4. A Chemist would say no.

Us knife enthusiasts, not so sure if we should. For example, we all very much distinguish between 154CM and CPM 154, because we like the additional toughness. But: chemically, they are the same.

What say you ?

I would agree with you. 3V is 3V is 3V. if Delta is the HT part, it is still 3V. If the chem composition is different then it would not even be called 3v. it would be something else. like z-tuff . if the chem comp different? I don't think it is. I am sure it was the ht protocol. But maybe I am wrong.

Patrick called A8mod, same as INFI and that is wrong. He then tried to correct me, when I assumed he was talking about an old A8 mod steel that did have 8% and I said they were all chipper steels. He was talking about the 5% Cr A8 mod steel and everyone knows that INFI is an 8% Cr steel. Like 3V.
 
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Patrick called A8mod, same as INFI and that is wrong.

I'm sorry but it's true.
I was always curious about the rumors about A8 Mod and INFI and, in January 2020, I decided to find out for sure.
So I contacted Larrin Thomas and proposed to give him one of my Busse knives (a Park Ranger model that was not loved as much as the other Busse in my collection) and asked him if it would be possible to analyze the composition.
Larrin agreed and I sent the knife. He received it and tested the composition with Optical Emission Spectroscopy (OES).
And the result is......A8 Mod !
Same composition so same steel.

Obviously it does not means A8 Mod / INFI is a bad steel (Larrin wrote that it's a "perfectly fine steel").
But we should all stop saying INFI is something else than A8 Mod.

PS : At the end Larrin decided not to publish his Patreon article about the INFI composition. If you are one of his subscribers you can read the article directly on Patreon. Otherwise I can send you a screenshot of this article if you want.
 
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ferider

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Look guys, OP speaking here: let's please not go down that metallurgy rat-hole, A8 mod vs Infi, etc. A8 mod has large chemical tolerances, Infi has evolved over time, Larrin has argued with Jerry about this since 2006, and several related threads have been closed since then .... In a nutshell, Larrin looks at this as a metallurgist, Jerry looks at it like a Chef of a good restaurant, two very different perspectives.

We have at least two great steel tests available to us, Cobalt Cobalt 's above, and Nathan's comparison of Industry standard 3V vs. Delta 3V vs Infi (https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-composition-of-infi-and-what-it-means.1619871/post-18511243). The summary of both tests in my eyes (a user's) is similar: both D3V and Infi are superb for hard use knives, D3V a little harder, Infi a little less breakable, maybe. Also, D3v is likely a little more corrosion resistant. And marketing aside, both US companies stand 100% behind their product (huge added value, IMHO).

That should be good enough for the discussion of this thread .... company/marketing cultures and the larger Busse portfolio aside, if you use both Busse and CPKs, give us some more feedback, please. For instance, I love all the photos so far ....

Patrick, I've been at Bocuse's in Lyon twice. I _loved_ it, and I didn't ask about the chemical composition of the Soufflé au Grand Marnier. I know you have Busses. CPKs as well ? If yes, how do you compare, if not, why not, please ?

Cheers,

Roland.
 
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Cobalt

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I'm sorry but it's true.
I was always curious about the rumors about A8 Mod and INFI and, in January 2020, I decided to find out for sure.
So I contacted Larrin Thomas and proposed to give him one of my Busse knives (a Park Ranger model that was not loved as much as the other Busse in my collection) and asked him if it would be possible to analyze the composition.
Larrin agreed and I sent the knife. He received it and tested the composition with Optical Emission Spectroscopy (OES).
And the result is......A8 Mod !
Same composition so same steel.

Obviously it does not means A8 Mod / INFI is a bad steel (Larrin wrote that it's a "perfectly fine steel").
But we should all stop saying INFI is something else than A8 Mod.

PS : At the end Larrin decided not to publish his Patreon article about the INFI composition. If you are one of his subscribers you can read the article directly on Patreon. Otherwise I can send you a screenshot of this article if you want.

Well, quite interesting and I would love to see the actual measured results. At this point I think larrin needs to come up with those graphs. Like what I am posting below. Now Larrin may have been thinking about the old A8mod which was an 8% Cr steel and you might have assumed he meant the 5%Cr version you found. Even so, Busse has always been quite clear that INFI was not A8mod. Let me show you the actual tests I have run using a niton xl2

First up 1998 SHBM original run knife. Not A8mod. In the same sheet, 2003 FBM, not A8 Mod
VpBi5he.jpg


Next up BME Bolo 2001 run not A8mod
aW2oAo3.jpg


You will notice a difference in the old vs new INFI. I am missing 🤣


OP, no worries. Things always go like this and work themselves out. Everyone learns a little along the way.
 
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Patrick, I've been at Bocuse's in Lyon twice. I _loved_ it, and I didn't ask about the chemical composition of the Soufflé au Grand Marnier. I know you have Busses. CPKs as well ? If yes, how do you compare, if not, why not, please ?

I have multiple Busses (minus the Park Ranger visible in below image because I sent it to Larrin) :

KKATZTIh.jpg


And I have multiple CPKs (and I should receive the Kephart tomorrow...I can't wait) :

4P8NZRmh.jpg


How can I compare them?
I think Currawong Currawong in this thread found the best description : "Busse makes close to unbreakable knives dialled in for unbreakability. CPK makes close to unbreakable knives dialled in for cutting performance".
I like my Busses but I prefer my CPKs, I think they are exceptionally well-thought out and the fit and finish is better.
 

ferider

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I have multiple Busses (minus the Park Ranger visible in below image because I sent it to Larrin) :

KKATZTIh.jpg


And I have multiple CPKs (and I should receive the Kephart tomorrow...I can't wait) :

4P8NZRmh.jpg


How can I compare them?
I think Currawong Currawong in this thread found the best description : "Busse makes close to unbreakable knives dialled in for unbreakability. CPK makes close to unbreakable knives dialled in for cutting performance".
I like my Busses but I prefer my CPKs, I think they are exceptionally well-thought out and the fit and finish is better.

That's a superb collection ! I see you have two SOBs (?). Can't wait for mine to arrive tomorrow ....
 

Cobalt

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Wow, nice collection. Gotta say, you have all angles covered.


I have multiple Busses (minus the Park Ranger visible in below image because I sent it to Larrin) :

KKATZTIh.jpg


And I have multiple CPKs (and I should receive the Kephart tomorrow...I can't wait) :

4P8NZRmh.jpg


How can I compare them?
I think Currawong Currawong in this thread found the best description : "Busse makes close to unbreakable knives dialled in for unbreakability. CPK makes close to unbreakable knives dialled in for cutting performance".
I like my Busses but I prefer my CPKs, I think they are exceptionally well-thought out and the fit and finish is better.
 
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Well, quite interesting and I would love to see the actual measured results.

I bought my Busse Park Ranger in 2018. So the composition reflect the 2018 INFI.
And that is another quite infuriating problem with Busse. Changing steel composition (old INFI? New INFI?) while still calling your steel INFI :mad:

As I wrote previously I can send you the article screenshot if you want. Or perhaps I can post the screenhot of Larrin's article here? What do you think ?
 

Cobalt

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I bought my Busse Park Ranger in 2018. So the composition reflect the 2018 INFI.
And that is another quite infuriating problem with Busse. Changing steel composition (old INFI? New INFI?) while still calling your steel INFI :mad:

As I wrote previously I can send you the article screenshot if you want. Or perhaps I can post the screenhot of Larrin's article here? What do you think ?

Post it. Nothing wrong with posting reality. Yes, I have noticed the formula change as well. INFI is the process, and maybe that's why. Who knows.

The original run was totally different from what I saw than later gens. So it can be seen that things have changed.
 
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Post it. Nothing wrong with posting reality.

OK. After all I'm the one who provided the Busse knife to Larrin and I'm also a a subscriber to his Patreon so I think I can post the result of the composition analysis (I removed the first part of the article where Larrin explained why he was reluctant to publish an article about INFI).
Obviously if Larrin object about my post I will remove the screenshot.

In the composition chart in the article you can see INFI at the top and then the composition of 5 A8 Mod steel (under different names because they are build by different companies).
The composition of INFI is more precise because it's the exact result of the Optical Emission Spectroscopy method. For instance we can see minuscule levels of Co and Ni.
In the comments section Larrin wrote : "Those are typical trace levels of Co and Ni. I only included them because reportedly there was an addition at some point in the past."

The article :

IyFT6foh.png
 

Cobalt

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OK. After all I'm the one who provided the Busse knife to Larrin and I'm also a a subscriber to his Patreon so I think I can post the result of the composition analysis (I removed the first part of the article where Larrin explained why he was reluctant to publish an article about INFI).
Obviously if Larrin object about my post I will remove the screenshot.

In the composition chart in the article you can see INFI at the top and then the composition of 5 A8 Mod steel (under different names because they are build by different companies).
The composition of INFI is more precise because it's the exact result of the Optical Emission Spectroscopy method. For instance we can see minuscule levels of Co and Ni.
In the comments section Larrin wrote : "Those are typical trace levels of Co and Ni. I only included them because reportedly there was an addition at some point in the past."

The article :

IyFT6foh.png

Patrick, that aligns closely to my later measurements. If you look at it, it has 8% Cr not 5% like your A8mod. So it certainly is not A8mod.
 
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Patrick, that aligns closely to my later measurements. If you look at it, it has 8% Cr not 5% like your A8mod. So it certainly is not A8mod.

A8 Mod is a 8% chromium steel.
Look at the zknives.com chart I posted in a previous message (correcting a wrong chart from AKS I posted earlier).
So the measurement of my INFI Park Ranger by Larrin match exactly the composition of A8 Mod published by the companies producing it.

You can verify this by looking at the pdf from Latrobe : http://cdna.terasrenki.com/ds/1.2631_X50CrMoW9_AISI-L8_LSS-Chipper-Knife_Datasheet_3.pdf
And also the pdf from Uddeholm : https://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_viking_english.pdf
 

DMG

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Look guys, OP speaking here: let's please not go down that metallurgy rat-hole, A8 mod vs Infi, etc. A8 mod has large chemical tolerances, Infi has evolved over time, Larrin has argued with Jerry about this since 2006, and several related threads have been closed since then .... In a nutshell, Larrin looks at this as a metallurgist, Jerry looks at it like a Chef of a good restaurant, two very different perspectives.
Two very different but not at all equal perspectives. If I want to know how to make Eggs Benedict, I want the chefs opinion. If I want to know about knife steel, I want to talk to the metallurgist that specializes in knives. Its not Even debatable.
 

Cobalt

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A8 Mod is a 8% chromium steel.
Look at the zknives.com chart I posted in a previous message (correcting a wrong chart from AKS I posted earlier).
So the measurement of my INFI Park Ranger by Larrin match exactly the composition of A8 Mod published by the companies producing it.

You can verify this by looking at the pdf from Latrobe : http://cdna.terasrenki.com/ds/1.2631_X50CrMoW9_AISI-L8_LSS-Chipper-Knife_Datasheet_3.pdf
And also the pdf from Uddeholm : https://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_viking_english.pdf
I did. Your chart you posted above says 5.3% Cr
 
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