Busse Knives (INFI Steel): Is It Worth The Price?

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As Dennis Miller is fond of saying, "these are the JOKES, people." If you are referring to the heat treat "formula", it is not mine. It was originally devised as a PhD dissertation. You should tell Herr Dr. Landes what is wrong with it. But first, make sure that Busse is not using a similar method. :D From what I have seen, there are no "super secret heat treat methods" only ones that you can't do because you lack the knowledge, training and expensive equipment to do on your own. Well, except for the super secret methods that leave 1095 at 56-57 Rc. Those are neither secret nor super.;) What I was referring to in that post was the apparent need of people to try to destroy $500 knives just because they have the disposable income to do so and then call it "science".
kurodrago said:
If you can make the same Thread» about Bark River fans? Then I will tell ya whats wrong with your formula...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...sse-fans-really-that-retarded?highlight=Busse
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jdm61 said:
As Dennis Miller is fond of saying, "these are the JOKES, people." If you are referring to the heat treat "formula", it is not mine. It was originally devised as a PhD dissertation. You should tell Herr Dr. Landes what is wrong with it. But first, make sure that Busse is not using a similar method. :D From what I have seen, there are no "super secret heat treat methods" only ones that you can't do because you lack the knowledge, training and expensive equipment to do on your own. Well, except for the super secret methods that leave 1095 at 56-57 Rc. Those are neither secret nor super.;)
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It all comes down to how accurate the equipment (Temp Control) is because if it's extremely accurate one can really tweak the performance of just about any steel to do exactly what they want.

Think Aerospace.....
 
Two reasons I haven't bought from Busse yet:
1) more $ than I have yet been able to justify for a knife when i own so many others
2) While I am hard on my tools and occasionally use them for purposes they were not designed for, I am more concerned with edge damage from rolling and abrasion than major chipping. Based on this, I have felt that bussekin SR101 (52100 "modified" via excellent HT?) better suits my needs. I own a SYKCO 511, RatManDu, HRLM, and Rodent Solution. Perhaps someday I'll get a HogMuk on the 2ndary market, but I want one with micarta scales and they never come up :(.

Regarding performance of other tough steels like 5160 matching INFI, you'd need an excellent HT at least, and that seems to be a Busse forte. Compare their SR77 to S7 knives, SR101 to 52100 knives, or their D2 to other D2 (and I'm sure there are other steels they've used). *shrug*
 
You beat me to it. I was going to say that CPM1V is the toughest of the CPM steels, but people choose to use CPM 3V instead because it has more wear resistance and the ability to support a thin, very acute age. Now Crucible is coming out with CPM 4V, which has less toughness (still about 25% more than A2) but greater wear resistance, like somewhere between 3V and CPM M4, but still with more impact resistance than CPM M4 and it can be left at higher hardness. With that said, 1V still has more abrasion resistance than A2 and approaches that of D2, so it may be the "direct competitor" to INFI, but, given the choice, not many knifemakers seem to want to use it.
hardheart said:
1V is a powder steel, and it is almost as tough as S7 at the same hardness http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/cpm1vt.html


That isn't toughness, though it is still a way to measure strength. And the geometry of the steel pieces more heavily determines how much it takes to bend and break...


Which is why knifetests did nothing to compare steels, only knives of particular designs. But 3V did make it through the whole test in the Dan Keffeler custom, like the INFI FFBM (but not all INFI did) and S7 in the Scrapper 6. Fine company, except the Cold Steel Kukri machete also completed the test.

I have a couple major expenses spooling up, but then I will look into breaking some INFI on a Charpy tester to see how it actually measures by an industry standard.
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If it's worth it is up to you to decide. I personally don't think they're worth it.
 
kurodrago said:
Yeah, but it seems that nobody can get right done...look at Bark River for example.
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Okay, well tell me this then: does Zero Tolerance get it right with their ZT 0100? I was seriously looking at that one... I was also looking at the Bark River Aurora in 3V. What I found a little strange with BKR is that with certain dealers (such as knivesshipfree) the knife is simply... the knife. Ok great. On OTHER sites, it mentions that Barkies are all cryo treated.

When I asked the owner of the knife shop near my place about cryo, he said it was awful, because "... while cryo treatment makes knives harder, it also makes them extremely brittle." But to me, it would depend more on the exact process of treatment rather than just saying cryo is bad, right? (Then again, what do I know?)
 
One thing that Busse has going for them apparently IS their heat treat. There are a couple of things that you can say about the "industry standard" heat treatments for various types of steel. First, if the steel was originally designed for something other than knives, the heat treat may not be ideal for your purposes. 52100 is a great example of that. If you are making bearings, you want maximum wear resistance, so big carbides and retained austenite are not really an issue. A number of the really effective heat treatments for 52100 blades involve austenizing at temperatures below the "saturation line" in order to restrict the amount of carbon that goes into solution and control grain growth. The also can leave the steel a screaming hard 67Rc as quenched. Secondly, most "industry standard' heat treatment formulas are arguably "designed" to a price point and intended for large industrial setting. So for someone who has huge evens, etc, it is cheap. For little knife guys who want to do their own HT, maybe not so much. I don't know how many people can "truly" spheroid anneal 52100 by soaking it for 16 hours in an oven, at least without getting a visit from the local cops or the DEA because they think you are running a pot growing operation.:D
 
Answer, YES, a Busse knife is worth the price. I got one and found out for myself.
 
Altaraz said:
Okay, well tell me this then: does Zero Tolerance get it right with their ZT 0100? I was seriously looking at that one... I was also looking at the Bark River Aurora in 3V. What I found a little strange with BKR is that with certain dealers (such as knivesshipfree) the knife is simply... the knife. Ok great. On OTHER sites, it mentions that Barkies are all cryo treated.

When I asked the owner of the knife shop near my place about cryo, he said it was awful, because "... while cryo treatment makes knives harder, it also makes them extremely brittle." But to me, it would depend more on the exact process of treatment rather than just saying cryo is bad, right? (Then again, what do I know?)
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He needs to get into another business because I suspect that he doesn't even know how many of the "tough" high alloy steel knives that he sells have been cryo treated.;)
 
csmaz said:
Does that surprise you? Look at some of the pictures that get posted on the Busse forum from get togethers of the Busse fanboys. Many of them would get winded from walking across a parking lot to a buffet restaurant.
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LOL so true. Most of the get togethers and "knife testing" involve dressing in camo to hide the gut, starting a campfire, making steaks and coffee, cracking open some cold ones, and then posing with your Nuclear Fusion Battle Queen Combat Mistress.

I j/k :P
 
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What can you guys tell me about this knife here?

The description starts with "Busse B11 Tanker Gray Limited Run Discontinued". (Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't just about EVERY model of Busse considered a limited run?) This one, apparently, was a "very short run special design". I asked the seller about the grind, he said he thought it was flat symmetrical. The handle is Resiprene C, I think. It's new, unused and unsharpened for U.S. 500$ Is that a good price for a Busse like this (at least compared to the general prices of today?)
 
jdm61 said:
He needs to get into another business...

...I suspect that he doesn't even know how many of the "tough" high alloy steel knives that he sells have been cryo treated.;)
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Yeah, that's just crazy.

Cryo treatment is a standard part of the treatment on most of the high end steels.





Big Mike
 
jdm61 said:
He needs to get into another business because I suspect that he doesn't even know how many of the "tough" high alloy steel knives that he sells have been cryo treated.;)
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Ahhhh, I see, thanks :P I had a feeling something was up once I saw his prices (ex: 340$ for an AUS-8 Bowie :S) I also made the error of purchasing the Linder Crocodile Hunter from there. Don't get me wrong, it looks great and it's tough. But I should've known that particular wooden handle would hurt my hands, even after very limited use (learned that the hard way :P)

Then, once I actually pulled my head out of the ground and did some research, I realized I could've got the same knife new for like 150$ rather than the 260$ they charged me. The other funny thing is how every sale is final no matter what. That should've set off something in my brain. He also heavily dissed knife forums in general, saying they "... have no idea what the f*** they're talking about."

O_O Am I ever glad I didn't just take all of his advice as fact!
 
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LOL so true. Most of the get togethers and "knife testing" involve dressing in camo to hide the gut, starting a campfire, making steaks and coffee, cracking open some cold ones, and then posing with your Nuclear Fusion Battle Queen Combat Mistress.
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That's funny. I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that knife company that has more documented posts of hard use than Busse enjoys on these forums:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/772715-Proof-Of-Busse-(and-Kin)-Superiority

However, I understand where you are coming from and I do see a lot of that from Busse. But I also see a lot of that from most other outdoor knife manufacturers.

I just recently took out my large Busse safe queen......so I could hang it on my wall. However, it does get dusted off every week. :D
 
hardheart said:
I have a couple major expenses spooling up, but then I will look into breaking some INFI on a Charpy tester to see how it actually measures by an industry standard.
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Depending on the RC hardness of the knife you are going to use to get the test material I think you will be very surprised how those numbers turn out and line up.
 
Altaraz said:
goRXp.jpg
[/IMG]

What can you guys tell me about this knife here?

The description starts with "Busse B11 Tanker Gray Limited Run Discontinued". (Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't just about EVERY model of Busse considered a limited run?) This one, apparently, was a "very short run special design". I asked the seller about the grind, he said he thought it was flat symmetrical. The handle is Resiprene C, I think. It's new, unused and unsharpened for U.S. 500$ Is that a good price for a Busse like this (at least compared to the general prices of today?)
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One of my favorite Busse's, but no way I'd pay anywhere near that for it. Even on the secondary market. But, it's your money, you do with it as you please.
 
Altaraz said:
I was also looking at the Bark River Aurora in 3V. What I found a little strange with BKR is that with certain dealers (such as knivesshipfree) the knife is simply... the knife. Ok great. On OTHER sites, it mentions that Barkies are all cryo treated.
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It is easy to get too focused on one area and leave sight of a few issues such as :

1) They use A2 and 3V, in general two steels which are far more suitable than some of the crazy steels being used in similar knives. Yes you could argue that their could be more optimal choices, but it is also obvious that compared to D2 and things like T15, etc. Bark River is within as close as optimal as you can get without starting to really split hairs and interject a lot of personal opinion and preferences. For example I would generally go with S series over 3V as the higher wear would not be of much use for me and all it has is a lower grindability. But if you let your knives go really dull before sharpening, or you use power equipment to sharpen, or you pay people to sharpen then 3V is likely a better choice, or at least the decision is not so obvious.

2) Bark River came into a tactical world of low sabre-grinds, heavy edges, etc. and produced very thin ground knives. Now yes there is a massive amount of hype and information on the "convex" influence, but just pick up a Bravo vs Steel Eagle and do some cutting - there is a real difference there and you have to appreciate that. Do they occasionally have issues with over grinding, etc. yes, but if they ran TOP's geometry you would never be able to tell anyway.

3) They over a wide range of handle options out of some very high end woods with extremely nice finishes.

4) They have a very active forum which has full company support and active participation. Again you can argue it is moderated to the point Hitler would feel at home, but again there are lots of forums where you ask questions and all you hear is an echo, and there are some makers/manufacturers who have almost no way to contact them to get any information. Would it be nice if it was ran like Spyderco's form and Mike Stewart took Sal Glesser's approach (who defines gentleman), sure but as again, lots of people would pale if compared to Glesser.

5) As much as Mike is made out to be near to the anti-christ at times, he isn't the worst guy on the block in any respect, he doesn't hold a candle to Kevin McClung for example and compared to him Mike is a straight-shooter. If that sounds dramatic then read this and compare that to anything you have heard Stewart say about steels, grinds, etc. :




6) Bark River, while not as bad as before, it shows without doubt that the companies 3V HT and Grind is a common failure.:thumbup::D







[video=youtube;Zu0LJtbWBTg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu0LJtbWBTg[/video]
 
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