Busse Pikal

[NuclearWinterRat1]

Seems the idea has been defeated. Oh well.

 

[thombrogan]

LVC,

From what little I know (and worse, what I think I know), the particular technique and the related knives is designed to cover both general surprize attacks as well as allowing for blade deployment when an aggressor is trying to keep you from taking whatever out of your pocket (may be a knife, a pen, or even small pistol). Used as designed, you can draw and deploy your pocketknife from your pocket sitting down and in other situations wherein your range of motion is similarly limited. Plus, the act of tightening your fingers locks your knife firmly into your hand in a reverse-grip/edge-in position. Add the rounded butt end for anchoring the thumb and you have a knife purpose built for deploying and using a knife as close to instantaneously as wee human reflexes will allow. There's a small paradox in that the software/hardware SouthNarc, Trace, and Spyderco have set up remove any romantic mystique surrounding the use of countervailing force and yet the gadget factor still makes practice addicting.

And the red G-10 on the practice model looks kinda cool, too.

 

[thombrogan]

Seems the idea has been defeated. Oh well.

???

What's wrong with taking one of these:

and grinding the butt-end flush to its scales? You get INFI goodness and a blade compatible with parts of both SouthNarc's and Floro's methods and principles?

 

[Ban]

???

What's wrong with taking one of these:

and grinding the butt-end flush to its scales? You get INFI goodness and a blade compatible with parts of both SouthNarc's and Floro's methods and principles?

Because the handle shape is not designed for edge in use. You will be fighting with the grip to properly control and orient the tip. The handle would need major modifications for it to even work fairly well. The blade tip would also need to be modified.

 

[NuclearWinterRat1]

I was just checking to see how the Busse buying public would respond to something like a Busse Pikal. Yeah I definitely see how the SS could be used but as ban said it would be a little uncomfortable and hinder control with the handle as it is now.

 

[kesmed2001]

I think this would be a great idea for a Busse model.

I like my Shivworks Disciple and Clinch Pick very much, and picked up several Spyderco P'kals for their small form factor. I am glad that Spyderco has finally released the P'kal trainers.

Ban's rendition of a P'kal Busse looks great.

 

[leatherman]

I had a Jens Anso Pikal once upon a time, it was a cross with a kerambit. Very secure but I just couldnt get used to the backwards blade.

 

[Jerry Busse]

I used to make a knife back in the early '80's called the "Pro Drop" which was short for "Professional Drop Point Hunter". . . It was a 4" drop point with an upside down handle, very similar to Ban's. It had finger grooves along the belly as well. I didn't design it as a self defense knife however. It was designed as an upside down skinner. . . Worked great. . . sold lots of 'em. . . Always started up great conversations at the shows. . . . I'll see if I can find an old blank. . . .

Mike Thourot inspired the design as he has been making upside down handled hunters and skinners since the late 60's :thumbup: I have one of his early ones in my collection. . . Very cool ! ! ! !

Jerry






.

 

[Ban]

BossHog,

So does this mean we will be seeing a upside down knife sometime in the near future??? :thumbup::thumbup: I would love to see a pic of that Pro Drop knife. Better yet.... just make a updated INFI version with a wharnie blade! I am threatening to call Amy-O everyday until I see one

 

[Jaxx]

Nuclear Shank or Nuclear Shiv!

I already have a Nuclear shiv! ...The Busse Custom Shop "Shiv Warden" Variant. It may very well have the thinnest blade of any GW straight from Busse, and it was ground from a .270" thick GW blank, which might also qualify it as both the thickest & thinnest GW around, LOL...

It's 2 edges are sharpened all the way back to the handle & choil on both sides (asymmetrical dagger action!), tapers all the way to the tip, has a clip point and is razor sharp! :thumbup: While it isn't a pikal, it could work pretty effectively along the same principles...

Wild, huh? ...I imagine that Jerry could come up with a way better pikal style Busse knife... But, there can only be ONE 'shiv'! :thumbup:

 

[Last Visible Canary]

you can draw and deploy your pocketknife from your pocket sitting down and in other situations wherein your range of motion is similarly limited. Plus, the act of tightening your fingers locks your knife firmly into your hand in a reverse-grip/edge-in position.

when I was carrying my fixed blade, I'd shift it to a side draw across the front of my belt when I sat in my car, making it so the needed draw motion was about 2", left to right. didn't have to go to my side at all.

 

[NuclearWinterRat1]

I really love the pikal design but there is a serious lack of those who really produce them. I think it is a design that people may not know about or just dismiss as a dumb novelty. I know I was like that a few years ago and then I started reading some of the testimonials of those who have actually used pikal style knives and taken the courses for them. I know there has been a lot of debate with the slash vs. stab of an SD knife but I figured Busse knives are generally, beautifully overbuilt so it seems that it really could serve the dual role as an SD/Utility knife without a problem. That is my only critique of the current producers of pikal blades. They are very purpose built, and do not seem to handle simple chore work well. I mean I don't want to be carrying around a bunch of different knives for different tasks(unless I am in the woods or just showing off) But I figured someone could find a way to make these blades a little more utility friendly Especially when it comes to thickness(sorry I don't put a huge amount of faith in anything less than 3/16" thick,just my preference). I know that is why I think so highly of the fatty wardens.

NUKE ON...NUKE HARD

 

[Evolute]

I'd like to hear more about such a knife's possible use as an outdoors utility knife, if there's much to say about that.

 

[Progunner]

I used to make a knife back in the early '80's called the "Pro Drop" which was short for "Professional Drop Point Hunter". . . It was a 4" drop point with an upside down handle, very similar to Ban's. It had finger grooves along the belly as well. I didn't design it as a self defense knife however. It was designed as an upside down skinner. . . Worked great. . . sold lots of 'em. . . Always started up great conversations at the shows. . . . I'll see if I can find an old blank. . . .

Mike Thourot inspired the design as he has been making upside down handled hunters and skinners since the late 60's :thumbup: I have one of his early ones in my collection. . . Very cool ! ! ! !

Jerry

Was Thourot's inspiration in the form of Johnny Walker though Jerry?

 

[Jeepnut22]

Here is an interesting Pikal design:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539990

 

[Ban]

Here is an interesting Pikal design:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539990

That is a very nice looking pikal. I personally would prefer a tad bit more guard if designing it from ground up. I would also prefer the blade and tip to slant towards the spine side a bit more for a more natural point orientation in the RGEI grip.

 

[NuclearWinterRat1]

I am starting to get why not many people like this idea. You get a normal busse you can do a lot with it, including utility chores. I have just been doodling some drawing of my ideal Busse pikal and I really can't do much improvement over the Shivworks model in terms of simplicity. Actually I have been looking around at some of Peter Jensen's old work. I know he has been almost permanently blacklisted here, but I still can't help admire some of his designs. I have seen a few that seemed ahead of their time like a pikal karambit, which I thought was pretty progressive thinking. I also liked his idea for a modern Kunai which I could see as being very useful both as a defense tool and as a utility knife. Jensen was one of my knife heroes due to his designs, which I thought were pretty darn cool and functional. Too bad his business ethics and practices went the way of the dodo.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

the more I read my post the more it sounded like prac tac material, so edited out it goes.

since I disagree with a core fundamental of the p'kal style, I want something different from the blade then they do. in the p'kal style proper that I've seen, the knife presented on shivworks homepage is great. I would personally want something different for what I would do with a reverse edge in oriented knife.

 

[Ban]

LVC

That Piper style is not much different than Pikal. The piper system uses arm traps followed by half beat sewing machine stabs. Pikal is essentially the same with the addition of a rip with the edge in to immobilize the limb should the original attack gets blocked or parried. Once the limb is immobilized and out of the way the sewing machine stabs commence.

If you watch the shivwork videos you will see that there is quite a bit of resemblance. The only major difference is that Pikal rips and destroys the offending limb while Piper continues to trap/check the offending limb and stabbing around it.

 

[Last Visible Canary]

LVC

That Piper style is not much different than Pikal. The piper system uses arm traps followed by half beat sewing machine stabs. Pikal is essentially the same with the addition of a rip with the edge in to immobilize the limb should the original attack gets blocked or parried. Once the limb is immobilized and out of the way the sewing machine stabs commence. they say that it wasn't transformed from a stick system, indicating escrima, but if you look at escrima as a machete system using the mentality of "if it takes more then 3 strikes to kill your opponent, your doing it wrong" - I don't see why it's a bad thing.

If you watch the shivwork videos you will see that there is quite a bit of resemblance. The only major difference is that Pikal rips and destroys the offending limb while Piper continues to trap/check the offending limb and stabbing around it.

from what I saw, I interpreted the piper system as not being a system at all. it looked like a limited set of movement patterns combined with a psychology lesson. my problem with the system is that it relies on the opponent being confused and disoriented by the flashiness. if you get someone whose a closer, who only wants 3 or 4 targets that are meant to drop his opponent, I don't think the system would hold it's own one on one.

if you can protect your face and neck, get in hard and fast, and take a hard straight strab to the center of the neck, stab to the side of the neck with a forward rend and tear, get into a clench and stab the back of the neck at the spine, get a temple shot, or get a really good solid inner rib shot with a rend and tear - the piper style looks limited in it's ability to defend. it's only strong point (to me) is that it would give the user a driving mentality that could force itself past injuries during a fight.

it's a style thats meant to be used on victims, which makes sense with their backing philosophy.

the only two things I saw that I didn't like about the p'kal system was one image where the defender blocked the knife hand in the exact same position he was using to draw his apponents non-knife hand down. both parties would cut their opponent's wrist by dragging their knife hands down. doesn't make sense to put yourself in the position you want your opponent to be in.

but I will forgive it as a small technicality, and something the performer would not do if he saw it.

the second thing was it's dedication to rend and tear over stabs. to me, someone who is driving forward with the sole intent of taking out your entire throat, brain, spine, or lungs is far more dangerous then someone who is trying to pick me apart. But thats a biased interpretation, because I'm using my own emphasis to judge the style. if the intent of p'kal is to disable your opponent, not kill them, then it looked a 100% more solid then piper. if nothing else: it showed intent and direction.

I would rather fight a crazy man then a person actively trying to kill me. the crazy guy won't know what to do when he's in a weak position, he'll just keep acting crazy. the dedicated apponent will try to force his way forward towards his target, and you will have to defend in order to attack. if you fail you'll end up dead either way, but with the crazy guy it'll take longer and be less intelligently executed.



so, my preference for a reverse edge in knife would be a tip centered design meant to puncture the skull, and reach the lungs, not specifically to rend and tear.