I say you have her host a BUSSE COMBAT event:thumbup:
Then we can all show up and introduce ourselves as family members
I LIKE this idea!!!:thumbup:
:thumbup:
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Busse Security Blanket...
- Thread starter Lexi
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I LIKE this idea!!!:thumbup:
:thumbup:
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I humbly disagree. 1. a shotgun is much easier to use with gross motor skills than a handgun. 2. At room ranges, even with skeet choke, a shotgun will not spread out enough to not be covered by a paper plate. 3. On average, outside the human body, a handgun penetrates more than a shotgun with anything but slugs. You are just shooting 8-9 .33 caliber round ball "bullets" at a time but they are moving slower than the handgun round. For example a 115 gr. 9mm (.357 diameter with more weight and diameter) is going 1225 feet per second and 12 ga. buckshot is going 1125 fps. I would not use slugs inside a residence.
In reference to the gentleman's test that shot the plywood and drywall. I do not trust shot sizes smaller than #4 to penetrate the bad guy enough to use them. I really like something with more mass than #4, but in a 20 gauge that might be the only option. I am not saying there is no way they would work and I certainly would not like to get shot with one. (I wouldn't like being hit in the chest with a baseball bat either.) I am saying that they might not penetrate bone and heavy muscle to do the job. After all, even 9mms have not penetrated arm bones and allowed the attacker to continue.
I would never recommend someone shooting a human with rock salt. In my neck of the woods that would likely be construed as some type of torture and heaven forbid you blinded him or something. "So Ms. Victim, you weren't scared enough to use real bullets?" says loser bad guy attorney. Just my opinion.
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in all fairness I am referring to 12 gauge and 00 buck shot (what I have seen many recommend as home defense shells to use).
1) try waking up in the middle of the night because an intruder is in the house. Now grab the shot gun. now grab a flashlight. now grab your phone to dial 911. how you holding up so far? now you also have to worry about when you are walking thru the house with a loaded shotty if your kid is gonna come running out of the room down the hall along with many other considerations.
2) at 10 to 15 feet unless you are dead center mass you can lose 1 or two balls with a 7 or 9 ball shell. And the spread will differ from gun to gun, different barrels, different ammo, different ammo manufacturer.
3) outside the human body 00 buckshot will go through drywall and have enough velocity to enter a body on the other side of the wall.
I'm not saying a shotgun is necessarily a bad idea, but like anything else its not a magical wand that you wave around and solves your problems.
Even people who specialize in shotguns (ie:Chris Costa formerly of Magpul Dynamics) will tell you that THEY need to spend considerable time on the range with a shotgun to be comfortable enough to use it. Where does that leave the rest of us weekend warriors? It is like anything else you would plan to use as a weapon, you really need to practice using it.
I think the shotgun is best, in a high stress situation. I never keep any gun with one in the chamber for saftey reason's so, while my gun's are loaded, a round must be chambered. If I were a criminal and heard that round being chambered, especially from a shotgun, I would have to be pretty dumb to continue, knowing I am fixing to be shot. A shotgun does not require precise aiming and any shot in the general direction of said bad guy, should result in some kind of hit with buckshot and do enough damage to make him want to reverse course. A shot at close range should result in most of the Buckshot hitting the intruder as it takes distance for those shot's to spread out. Course, any weapon is useless unless a person is willing to use it, so training the mind to make these desicion's is a must, and being familiar with the weapon is also a must.
Edit/ It is impossible to envision every scenerio that could take place, as each person's home, kid's, door's, window's, ect are different. All this must be figured into the equation before we can know the best course of action.
Edit/ It is impossible to envision every scenerio that could take place, as each person's home, kid's, door's, window's, ect are different. All this must be figured into the equation before we can know the best course of action.
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We may have to respectfully agree to disagree on some points. Perhaps some of it also comes down to how our residences are arranged. My family and I sleep on the top floor. If I hear something downstairs that sounds like an intruder I am not going down there, I am calling 911 and announcing in a loud voice that I will shoot anyone coming up the stairs.
Your point 1. I will give you cell phone is harder to operate with a shotgun. Light is mounted to shotgun and handgun and both are strong enough that i can point them at the ground in pitch darkness and they will light up a room enough to identify the target. phones have speakers for a reason...dial 911 and yell into it if you have to.
Your point 2. It is a lot harder to hit center mass with a handgun under stress than with a shotgun or rifle. That is why we have a handgun until we can fight our way back to a long gun. If I get some time this weekend I will shoot a target at a lasered 7 yards (twice your 10 foot range). I don't think the spread is more than 10 inches with an improved cylinder (very little choke at all) choke and 12 ga 00 bucksot in an 18" barrel. Your average novice cannot fire two quick shots into a group that size let alone the 8-9 that is in buckshot.
Your point 3: yes and so will the 2-3 handgun rounds that someone missed the target with while they are firing fast to defend their lives.
I am not familiar with the person you quoted as training but i think he is probably referring to reloading, moving, etc. I think he would also say that a handgun requires even more training. I have taught a lot of novices and youth to shoot. If the shotgun or rifle fits them, they rarely miss a stationary target during training. Even cops miss stationary targets training with a handgun. It may suprise you to learn that in Ohio the LE quals for shotgun require 100% to pass (including with slugs from bead sighted weapons) and handgun requires 60% to pass. Reshoots are rare with shotguns.
As always...my opinions.
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In my opinion this is a myth. The shot spread is not that far inside a residence. It does require you to aim or you will miss.
M67
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That it does. Close range (under 15 yards) even with a skeet choke, a shotgun won't spread shot wider than the size of an adult's torso. Close range shotguns' patters are tight, when you bump out to 25-40 yards for clay pigeons or turkey, that when the shot really starts spreading.
I've missed with a shotgun before. Had birdshot in it, and a really tight choke, shooting a snake in a pond that was about 7 yards away. Too close and the choke was too tight, I quick shot and the main group missed him.
So yes, Jerry is right, you do have to aim with a shotgun.
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all good points
also good point, but how many people take the time or spend the money to mount the light on the shotty? It's the smart answer but I don't know how many people would do it.
I haven't even had the chance to go to the range with my new shotgun
I concede it may be harder to hit center mass, but when you are using shells that have 7-9 balls in them for every shot you make with the shotgun you are making 7-9 shots with a handgun. That can be both good and bad. All you need is one stray ball to go through a wall into a bedroom with a child in it, or something like that.
I have no doubts that you can get a 10" spread with 00 buckshot. But the point I was making is that the spread will change with ammo manufacturure, the length of barrel, choke, gun make...
and your 2-3 handgun rounds equates to 18-27 rounds when comparing it to a shotgun. 2-3 rounds going wide may not be a big deal, 10 or 15...bigger deal
Actually they say the shotgun is the most difficult to learn.
ok, I'm curious...so I have a question: When you teach youth and novices to shoot and they "rarely miss a stationary target" do you account for pellets that have missed the target? When the police qualify for shotguns do they make sure the spread (all 8 or 9 pellets) hit the target? Or is it "a hit=a hit"?
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Respectfully to Super X, this is the very reason I think shotguns are a bad idea. There are too many people who think just like this...pick up a shotgun, point it in the general direction, squeeze off a few rounds...
to me it is the same as saying "go grab that Glock, point it in the general direction of the target and blow through 2 clips." Sure, you MIGHT hit the target. But you are also doing a lot of unintended damage.
Whenever I shoot a gun I want to be accountable for every shot. IOW with a shotgun every shot I make I want to know where 8 or 9 pellets have gone.
I did not mean to imply, you can't aim at all and still hit your target. I am thinking of someone who is scared, stressed, maybe even in a panic, getting a round off and still being able to hit someone even if it's not perfectly center mass. My home has hallway's which lead to the door's. If someone breeches the door, they are then in those hallway's and if I had to shoot down them, just pointing in the center of that space will more than likely hit someone due to their narrow width. There are no neighbors, and no rooms in the way of those narrow hallway's. That's why I said, it's hard to envision every scenerio since the variables are too great, house to house. If Lexi would like to post pics of the layout of the home, maybe we could give better answer's than the general ones, we have to give not knowing the detail's.
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This one is a big deal. Regular training doesn't always help you control the adrenaline in a real situation.
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Then we would have to worry about Robbers! hehe
She is very interested in taking the gun training course, plus a self defense class. We are off to the right start! I am so proud of her!Lexi,
That is great new's on the training course. That is the number one thing she can do. Take responsibility for her own safety, be aware, and have a plan. I have many plan's for these kind's of scenerio's and it involves my whole family and what each person should do if we are confronted with dangerous situations. We talk about it, think about it and everyone get's training on firearms safety and use at my home. I would not have it any other way
That is great new's on the training course. That is the number one thing she can do. Take responsibility for her own safety, be aware, and have a plan. I have many plan's for these kind's of scenerio's and it involves my whole family and what each person should do if we are confronted with dangerous situations. We talk about it, think about it and everyone get's training on firearms safety and use at my home. I would not have it any other way
Garth Reckner
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Then we would have to worry about Robbers! hehe
That is a great idea. As far as I am concerned you can never get enough training when it comes to firearms. Even the most experienced shoots in the world continue to train to hone their skills.
Garth
A knife for protection inside a house is laughable,at best.I know you work for Busse and this is the Busse forum and Busse knives can do everything from cutting a piece of paper to stopping a meteor from hitting earth..But get real..Get a gun..A knife,even a Busse wont do a damn thing for self protection.
Right on Garth-man!
:thumbup:And Lexi, if your sister is physically small, a "youth sized" shotgun may be more suited to her; still a full powered 20 gauge but easier for her to handle.
