Busse v Randall's Adventure & Training ESEE

[leatherman]

A sheath is included with every ESEE Knives purchase.

Not true at all, I was able to get any of the ESEE offerings without a sheath, the only exception was the HEST.

You really should do your research before making claims like that.

I'd rather not to have to pay for something I dont want or need, and ESEE provides that service.

 

[kdstrick]

Interesting thread. Fact is that 1095, even with a very good Rowan heat-treat is nowhere close to the toughness and edge retention of INFI or SR-101 (52100). Really... it's not even close. A more fair comparison is infi vs. cpm3v. I've done that comparison and it's very difficult to find any ascertainable difference in actual use. Both are premium steel's and are well worth the price IMO.

Now, that doesn't mean that EESE is not an exceptional value at its price point. I view it as one of the better deals in the knife market today. EESE is, by all accounts, a first class operation that stands by its product. In no way am I trashing EESE for their use of a mid-grade steel like 1095. It works for most people for most uses. Many good and knowledgeable people on this forum swear by them... and I value and trust their opinions.

Busse and EESE carry the best warranties in the business. You break it... they replace it. Hard to beat that!


But to compare 1095 to INFI really is not a fair challenge. Closer to EESE's price point is Swamp Rat knives... also a Busse Company. They use a proprietary heat-treated 52100 which they call SR-101. 52100 is a tougher steel than 1095. It also holds a better edge with Busse's heat treatment. Still, it is a bit (apprx $30) more expensive than EESE and does NOT come with a sheath. Again, EESE is an exceptional value.


Bottom line: you can't and won't go wrong with either! It just depends on how much you are willing to spend. My recommendation is to buy them all! It's a lot more fun. Sell the ones you don't like.





OH... and BTW. If you are on this forum and do NOT know how to sharpen a knife... please educate yourself so you will no longer be forced to whine about factory edges.




/

 

[cziv]

I'm not on your "a**" about your opinion of INFI.

Do you see me questioning your comments about the cardboard sheath or the price? No. I'm on your "a**" about an unwarranted assertion that you have yet to back up. You made a post implying that Busse edge retention is lacking, or at the very least, implying your insight on the matter has found it's reputation unfounded. Yet you state your Busse came dull and you never sharpened it. You now seem to be implying experience with Busse knives outside of the BWM, but you have old posts stating the BWM was your first Busse and your excitement about trying them out.

In any of your previous replies you could have clarified this, but you seem to be dancing around the subject. I just simply want you to own your words and stand behind them. Also, your link was just a google search. I read through the first few results. Nothing supports your position. Which doesn't really matter as I'm only just interested in your own personal experience. I can Google stuff for myself.

In the link provided I read just as much I love infi as much as it's retention isn't up to at least the price.

I don't have to take back what I've said. I stand by it. Also, enjoy the Junglas pics, it's much better to me than the BWM was. One's for sale in the exchange for less than I paid for mine, buy it. We can have a chop off.

Well...I don't pay attention with this....

or this

Why wouldn't you spend $15 on shipping and have them send you a new one in stead of dissing it? The Junglas is a light 10" chopper not a sharpened prybar. I'm sure it will baton fine if needed but not getting greedy and using it as a wedge. You don't have to do things that might be considered abusive. If you gave the back-story, I forgot it. So good luck on your decision.

I don't worry about this Junglas either. It's #22 so I've been cutting with it since day 1. This was my 2nd summer using it and it's only required stropping and I think I ran my course/fine and x-fine dia-folds on this spring just maintenance.

The first pic is a pile of saplings I cut down in the time my buddy smoked a single cigarette and a small tree cut in few strokes so I'm loving it. You could probably build a debris shelter or most of one and start a fire.

small tree in a few swings.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

I think he was saying that a sheath is included with every normal esee purchase. You asked to get one without a sheath, so technically he isn't wrong.

I have purchased 15 esee products, every single one included a sheath.

Not true at all, I was able to get any of the ESEE offerings without a sheath, the only exception was the HEST.

You really should do your research before making claims like that.

I'd rather not to have to pay for something I dont want or need, and ESEE provides that service.

 

[1966c10]

.....

 

[Allcaps321]

cviz what sort of sharpness are you stopping back too? Also did you notice a decrease in time between having to strop, i.e. more frequently ?

 

[Translash]

Its weird how all I the negativity I see about the Busse knives is just the "pricepoint". I dont see anyone saying INFI is inferior to 1095 regardless of whatever company makes it. That's because INFI is better than 1095 period. Fanboyism or not, unless it can be shown 1095 is a stronger, more reliable steel than INFI, INFI will always be better. Im not a Busse fanboy - I do own a few Busses and I do find it very hard to justify the price point (some of the busses I have I have buyers remorse) but regardless of it, INFI is just superior and will last a lifetime.

edit: this post may seem harsh but im trying to convey a point from a POV that negates price. I love 1095 to death, very good retention, easy sharpening, all around great steel. ESEE is great brand known for warranty and quality. I would never trade/give away my Junglas, beckers, or TOPS knives!!!!!

 

[Buck_110]

The makeup of INFI is proprietary. You can't order it from another manufacturer because it is proprietary.

The term INFI may be proprietary, but the steel composition isn't. A PMI gun or mass spectrometer will reveal the exact compostion(of anything) with no problem whatsoever. Anybody can order the steel, but, since the name is trademarked, it cannot be called INFI despite the fact that it may identical. Try marketing and selling it without using the term INFI. This is true of any trademarked product. The secret to Coca-Cola is the name, not a well-hidden secret formula any longer. With the technology of today, there really are no secrets; just marketing hurdles due to trademarks.

INFI is so great because of how it performs. It performs the way it does, not because the metal is magic or it has stuff in it that no one can duplicate. It performs great because it has a...heat treat that has been designed to give it the best performance. Busse (and kin Swamprat and Scrapyard) do excellent heat treat on all the steels they use!

The key to ANY great knife is great heat treat protocols. There's a reason why blades heat treated by Paul Bos, Mike Thourot, and the Busses are what they are. They do it right! Many people wrote 154 CM off years ago and bought into the powder steel marketing. If other manufacturers and makers were able to make 154 CM perform like Busse(Scrap Yard), they wouldn't have abandoned it. The same is true for 420 HC and D-2; which Paul Bos and Mike Thourot make sing and dance.

And as far as INFI goes, I don't care what the composition is. It's edge holding ability is greatly exaggerated on this site by fan boys.

I agree 100%. This is also why it sharpens as easily as it dulls. INFI's greatest asset is toughness.

 

[marthinus]

The key to ANY great knife is great heat treat protocols. There's a reason why blades heat treated by Paul Bos, Mike Thourot, and the Busses are what they are. They do it right! Many people wrote 154 CM off years ago and bought into the powder steel marketing. If other manufacturers and makers were able to make 154 CM perform like Busse(Scrap Yard), they wouldn't have abandoned it. The same is true for 420 HC and D-2; which Paul Bos and Mike Thourot make sing and dance.

This is so true. There is a reason the same steel can cost more in one makers knives then others, it all comes down to heat treat, and not just putting it in the furnace, but the entire temper, cooldown process.

Here are some pictures from this thread :http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/620931-Survival-Knife-for-under-120-dollars./page3

Not bad for 154cm IMO.

For me, I like ESEE and Busse Kin family. Great knives with good people standing behind them.

 

[ron_m80]

I don't think I have ever applied this quote to a knife collection, but it is amazingly applicable.

Experience is a great teacher, but it's lessons are very expensive

 

[leatherman]

I think he was saying that a sheath is included with every normal esee purchase. You asked to get one without a sheath, so technically he isn't wrong.

I have purchased 15 esee products, every single one included a sheath.

I didn't have to ask, its quite clear on the website that they will provide the knives without sheaths, its one of the order options. For example, the ESEE 4 is listed in the order page as ESEE 4, with sheath (price) and ESEE 4 without sheath (price)

 

[IMightBeWrong]

There really is no comparison. Randall made ESEE purposely as a high value mid range production grade knife. They aren't customs. Busse knives are. Both are worth the money. Fantastic for what they are, but Busse is in a totally different league.

 

[kdstrick]

I think I'm gonna start a Sebenza vs. Leek thread...



Who's with me????

Kidding... seriously... the madness must stop.

 

[leatherman]

That is a rather poignant comparison, well done kdstrick!

 

[Gator97]

You started with the following statement, to support or illustrate high edge holding ability of ESSE:

Yep, my junglas doesn't need a true sharpening even after having many outings where it has fought trees.

There was no comment about edge pro or otherwise in the same message.

The part in red? Did you not see the part where I said I sharpened it with the edge pro? I set my own bevel to 36 inclusive with the EP.

In later post you clarified, that indeed you sharpened it once with EP. The rest was touchups on ceramics. So, we have one sharpening. Since you say you set your bevel, I assume it was shortly after you received the knife? I'm asking because, if that is the case, it's pretty much the same as never sharpening, although for the knife that has seen many outings and chopping sessions just a single sharpening on EP could be a very good result, depends on how hard/long the knife was used and how sharp it is after maintaining as you describe.

 

[ron_m80]

I think I'm gonna start a... the madness must stop.

No no you are on the right track. Next lets compare the Cold Steel 1055 Latin machete to the Busse AK-47.

That should really drive the point home that the difference between INFI and 10 series carbon steel is so small it deserves a 5 page thread.

Honestly I want to see a Richtig 1095 blade put to abusive ends. It is too bad that HT and forging technique was lost to the knife community forever. That and the fact that his knives are so collectible now, I doubt the remaining few will be tested performance wise.

 

[cziv]

Well the Junglas is NOT a big Battle Mistress series kinda knife. It just isn't. For me it's about the value of the knife (all inclusive) for what you get. I think ESEE delivers more. Is a big Busse tougher. I'd say decidedly so but dang - look at the slab of steel you're packing & look at the price tags attached!

A little more knife than I need. They have spines as thick as a katana! Snagged this from a BF thread (thanks unknown author) but you get my drift of course it's tougher but only IMHO due to the sheer size of these things. And hey God bless knifenuts, so I say get whatever you like and use the heck out of them. :thumbup:

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

You started with the following statement, to support or illustrate high edge holding ability of ESSE:

There was no comment about edge pro or otherwise in the same message.


In later post you clarified, that indeed you sharpened it once with EP. The rest was touchups on ceramics. So, we have one sharpening. Since you say you set your bevel, I assume it was shortly after you received the knife? I'm asking because, if that is the case, it's pretty much the same as never sharpening, although for the knife that has seen many outings and chopping sessions just a single sharpening on EP could be a very good result, depends on how hard/long the knife was used and how sharp it is after maintaining as you describe.

Dude. Go back and read the replies. First you told me I had not sharpened the blade, and that was AFTER the sentence you quoted above. You are mismatching my quotes and messing up the order to suit your own agenda. After you stated that I had not sharpened, my very next reply states that I had sharpened on the EP. It's in the thread man, there is no disputing it.

Plus, I'm done arguing in here. Just gonna watch from now on.

 

[kdstrick]

No no you are on the right track. Next lets compare the Cold Steel 1055 Latin machete to the Busse AK-47.

That should really drive the point home that the difference between INFI and 10 series carbon steel is so small it deserves a 5 page thread.

Honestly I want to see a Richtig 1095 blade put to abusive ends. It is too bad that HT and forging technique was lost to the knife community forever. That and the fact that his knives are so collectible now, I doubt the remaining few will be tested performance wise.

Knife steels are not entirely different than anything other product on the market... Premium will cost more for a slight edge (pun intended) in performance.

The difference in premium (name the item) and non-premium are often small.

Premium beer tastes better than Non-premium beer... but it costs more. Still, they have the same effect. They are both beer. I happily pay more for the better flavor.

Generic peanut butter is still peanut butter. But everybody knows that choosy mom's choose Jif.

And I'll take a Zeiss scope over a Leopold any day... Zeiss gives me just a couple of extra minutes of hunting at dusk and dawn. But it costs more.


Bottom line is... we are all free to choose. Both are very successful knife companies because they make products that consumers like and desire and they stand behind their products with the best warranty in the business. Ultimately consumers decide if the difference is worth it. We vote with our money.

It doesn't seem as if either company is hurting for business. :thumbup:

 

[EK20]

I didn't have to ask, its quite clear on the website that they will provide the knives without sheaths, its one of the order options. For example, the ESEE 4 is listed in the order page as ESEE 4, with sheath (price) and ESEE 4 without sheath (price)

What order page? ESEE's? With ESEE's fantastic dealer network that offers way better then MSRP pricing, sheaths with every knife, and sometimes even free shipping, there's no reason (and Jeff and Mike agree with this) to not buy from their dealer network. In fact, Jeff and Mike encourage customers to buy from one of their dealers.