busse vs custom

Thats very interesting Soulrack. Chuck Bybee has some of the new Bohler steels in stock, I may have to give them a try.
 
There is a start on what will be a huge ongoing thread about metals in the Dog Forums. You will get lots of what is good for this is not necessarily good for that there. Frank
 
360joules said:
Watch this clip. That knife is 3/16" thick and I did that same demo over 200 times that weekend with the same knife. I'm not interested in hearing that it's the wrong use for a knife because I agree. HOWEVER, because I have done things like that with a Busse, I have a firm belief that it will be able to handle anything I need it to do during SAR callouts. I believe in this knife because I have tested it.





Cheers.
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No offense at all, brother but I'd wager that most makers here can build a knife to do what you did in that vid. Two hundred times or two thousand it wouldn't matter. 3/16" steel of your choice heat treated properly, with a low grind height like that produces a very tough tip. It's just not that impressive.
Like I say, nothing against you or Busse, I happen to think some of their knives are really neat.
Iz
 
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If you are looking for something that will pry crates open etc then save yourself some money and get a prybar.The reason Busse knives appear so tough is that they have super thick grinds that can take serious abuse but don't even come close to many of the custom knives when it comes to functional cutting ability.
Make a Busse thin enough to cut like one of Matt Lesniewski's knives and you will find that INFI ain't much better then any other steel. If you do a search you will find an extreme abuse test carried out on one of John Kiedaisch's knives and that was used to smash concrete and stab through steel plate etc with no ill effect.
I also find it sad that many people spend huge amounts of money on a super tough Busse knife only to let it spend it's life in a safe or drawer, you could have one made of toffee if that's all it's gonna do !!!!
 
Hi Iz,

No offense taken. You're right, it's not that impressive. In fact, that has become a minimum performance requirement for me for that type of knife. Not that big of a deal.

Now when I say that to a custom maker, they should be confident enough in their blades to warrant that it will hold up to that test. Again, the test isn't that impressive. If they won't warrant their knives, I'll never know what their knife is capable of. A good warranty will lead to people testing performance boundaries on their knives - when a knife holds up, people get excited, post pics and videos and that is the creation of hype.

I've said it before, Busse is a great knife -- there are many great knives. Warrant your knife if you want people to know that yours is one of them.

Pitdog, if I can avoid carrying a prybar, chainsaw, shovel, chisel and axe with one tool, I will, even if it means a slight performance loss in slicing. I acknowledge your point about thickness and I believe I stated earlier what my opinions are on that.

I am intrigued by what you say about John Kiedaisch's work. If his designs and warranty are right, I'd be happy to add his knives to my collection. If they live up to those performance standards, I'd be happy to add my experiences to any thread where his stuff is being talked down.

It's not about the brand for me. It's always about the knife.
Cheers,
 
"Facts"? Everyone knows that "superior" is a subjective and qualitative term. There seem to be more than a couple of people who know an awful lot about knives (including people who make knives themselves) who seem to greatly admire this steel. A positive vote from a number of experts is enough to qualify something as "superior". Not "perfect". Not "best for every kind of knife". Just superior.

Do you jump on people who refer to 420J2 as "inferior"? It's an equally subjective statement.

I don't think it is that hard to make a rough ranking of blade steels, especially if graded by use. Some are not admired, some win affection. INFI appears to be a steel that makes informed people take notice, like a number of other "superior" steels that get good reviews and cause knife makers to abandon one much admired alloy for another.

Could the masses be wrong? Certainly. 420J2 may be the best steel ever, and we are all just the victims of marketing thinking otherwise.
 
RX-79G said:
"Facts"? Everyone knows that "superior" is a subjective and qualitative term. There seem to be more than a couple of people who know an awful lot about knives (including people who make knives themselves) who seem to greatly admire this steel. A positive vote from a number of experts is enough to qualify something as "superior". Not "perfect". Not "best for every kind of knife". Just superior.

Do you jump on people who refer to 420J2 as "inferior"? It's an equally subjective statement.

I don't think it is that hard to make a rough ranking of blade steels, especially if graded by use. Some are not admired, some win affection. INFI appears to be a steel that makes informed people take notice, like a number of other "superior" steels that get good reviews and cause knife makers to abandon one much admired alloy for another.

Could the masses be wrong? Certainly. 420J2 may be the best steel ever, and we are all just the victims of marketing thinking otherwise.
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I think Paul has handled/tested the best knives from the best makers nth times over. Busse Makes a fine knife but takes a page right out of my Marketing text book on branding and makes a hyperbole out of it.

Also I can't justify buying another busse... You get a THICK, obtuse edge, Forge pitted with a coating, unbalanced, Stain prone (I have stained my Busses in less than 10 min of work), Heavy slab of sharpened steel... They are what they are If you want a koolaid induced steel drum stabbing contest knife, then go for it! last I checked that's not what I use a knife for.
 
360joules said:
It's not about the brand for me. It's always about the knife.
Cheers,
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This +1 :thumbup:
Busse makes a lot of designs that appeal to it's customer base. And if you like what you buy, and you can get it, then why do the hype or niches matter. Some people love Moras, some Cold Steel, or Benchmade or Spyderco, while others are custom knives all the way. If you like it, and it does all you want it to do, then you're good to go, no matter what you own. :)
I don't remember who said it, or where I saw it, but I am reminded of this quote (or something near to it, I have a lousy memory sometimes:o)
"Value is not what you pay, Value is what you get out of something"
Be it a cool Custom, a folder built to exacting specifications, or a knife you can make a DIY sunroof with. :eek: Knives come in all varieties, just like the people who own and use them, which is a big part of why knives, and the knife community is awesome IMHO.

Edit to add: This is not in response to anyone's post, this is just how I feel about the subject (albeit in a rambling disorganized manner :p :D)
 
petah said:
I think Paul has handled/tested the best knives from the best makers nth times over. Busse Makes a fine knife but takes a page right out of my Marketing text book on branding and makes a hyperbole out of it.

Also I can't justify buying another busse... You get a THICK, obtuse edge, Forge pitted with a coating, unbalanced, Stain prone (I have stained my Busses in less than 10 min of work), Heavy slab of sharpened steel... They are what they are If you want a koolaid induced steel drum stabbing contest knife, then go for it! last I checked that's not what I use a knife for.
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Busse makes thinner knives as well. Cultie, BAD, Sarsquatch, SS, Anorexic versions of several knives have been released. I have a few slicers from them. We are always clamoring for more thin versions, and there have been some more releases of such. All the ones I have owned have come shaving sharp except a used one that came with a convex edge that needed some stropping to make it hair popping. But that was not a factory edge.

That said, there is an occasional issue with poor edges coming from the shop occasionally. I know how to sharpen, so I would not ever bother to send one back if I ever received a poor edge, but if I did, they would fix it.

I would like to know what you cut that stained your Busse. Was it Infi, or an older Busse made of A2? I know you can get INFI to stain. I just have not found anything yet that has done it. Then again, I don't live in a coastal are, and don't leave the knife in Salt Water. But I have other knives in high carbon steels, and tool steel, and spring steel. All of which is actually pretty rust aggressive. I have to be careful with them.

For example, I just did a waterfall climb about 2 hours of soaking wet. I forgot to switch out my leather sheath for my kydex on my SS (a stripped modded version). I left the knife in the sheath for about 3 days, in a wet leather sheath. By the time I took the knife out, the sheath was bone dry, and no marks or discoloration or rust on the knife blade. Again, I was not worried about it. You can get it to stain, or even lightly rust, but it takes the right environment, and the rust pits are surface, not deep (I have seed a few members in humid coastal areas comment on this). Infi, even in these situations is much much easier to protect than tool steel, or other high carbon tool steels.

I have been using mine for several years now with out any staining. Used and put away soaking wet and forgotten about, and still no staining (on uncoated ones). I love the look of the unfinished Infi, after stripping. I have satin versions made with a nice satin finish (no INFI dimples as they are known). I also own coated versions which I tent to strip once I put some decent wear on the coating.



Even with steels like 5160 being rust aggressive, I still use them. I just take a bit more care.



As to the question if Infi is tough,

go to knifetests.com and watch the destruction tests of the FFBM. It is a thick knife (.31 if I remember correctly), so It may not be that impressive to some. But, watch the destruction test of the skinny Ash1. That knife is only 3/16 if I remember correctly, and it is crazy tough. (some hate this guy and his knife "tests" which are simply failure tests, but some expensive "hard use" "tactical" knives using "super steel" don't hold up for squat, and some very very cheap knives using very basic steels do extremely well!).

I would bet my life on them. There are plenty of custom makers who make knives I would also trust my life to. There are other Production makers I who make knives I would trust my life with (ESSE comes to mind, and they are cost effective as well, with the best warranty I have ever heard of.......even if you intentionally destroy the knife they will replace it, which is about where Busse's warranty stops. If you take a blow torch and cut one of their knives in half, ESSE will still replace it, where as Busse would not........but if you broke the Busse hammering it through a 1/4 inch steel walled pipe using a 3 lb sledge as a batton, Busse would still cover it).


Sorry, long post.

Bottom line, buy what you like, and us it.
 
360joules said:
Hi Iz,

No offense taken. You're right, it's not that impressive. In fact, that has become a minimum performance requirement for me for that type of knife. Not that big of a deal.

Now when I say that to a custom maker, they should be confident enough in their blades to warrant that it will hold up to that test. Again, the test isn't that impressive. If they won't warrant their knives, I'll never know what their knife is capable of. A good warranty will lead to people testing performance boundaries on their knives - when a knife holds up, people get excited, post pics and videos and that is the creation of hype.

I've said it before, Busse is a great knife -- there are many great knives. Warrant your knife if you want people to know that yours is one of them.



It's not about the brand for me. It's always about the knife.
Cheers,
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Troy,
I hear ya. And I agree with you, warranty is a big deal for a lot of people.
It's just that custom makers (at least me) have a hard time putting out an unconditional warranty, it's hard enough keeping up with orders and making any money at all to feed your family. So I think a lot of makers put those conditions out there to protect themselves from guys who would go out and bash a skinning knife through a concrete block and then complain when it broke.
They just can't absorb the cost of that sort of thing.
It would be different I think if the customer would say something like "Can you build me a knife I can batton into a concrete block with?".
But that usually doesn't happen.
I'd warranty a knife like that in a heart beat because they can be built just like anything else.
But I do see where you're coming from.
Later,
Iz
 
Gossman Knives said:
What would anyone expect Infi to do better then any other quality steel? I don't get it. There are so many great cutlery grade steels out there what makes Infi superior to say L6, 1084, 5160, A2 the list goes on. The heart and soul of a blade is the heat treatment. If that is right, the knife will perform.
Scott
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Wise words.
To be written in stone.
 
After reading all this thread what I don’t understand is why people get their panties all bunched up by a perfectly objective, simple question.
Can the custom makers using steels of their choice make a better knife?
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He’s not asking about price, so it doesn’t matter if Busses cost a million dollars each, that’s not the question. He’s not asking about type of knives, shapes and uses.
He’s not asking if your Esee, Tramontina or Victorinox works good enough for you.
I think he’s going for steel rather than knife, but while maybe not perfectly formulated, his question is pretty simple and I’ll rephrase the question so as to make it simple for everyone to understand:
Given similar knife shape, all resources available and no concern for cost, can you (or do you know of anyone) make a better knife steel/heat treatment combo than Busse’s INFI?
Better in terms of what? Sharpness and edge retention, toughness and resistance to abuse (yes, chopping cement would be considered abuse) without the blade snapping or the edge falling apart. If your knife chops through cement (similar shape as Busse remember) will the edge in your knife be more damaged than Busses? Sturdiness, flexing without permanent deformation and not breaking when flexed beyond it. All those combined. Is there a steel out there that outperforms INFI? Perfectly valid and objective question.
If the answer is yes, please tell us further, what type of steel is it and what heat trearment you used ( or not, Busse's heat treatment is secret as far as I know ). I may end up buying one. Do tell us a bit about it because I’d like to know, and clearly so would others.
If the answer is no then well, that’s that.
IF you don’t know, then state your opinion if you wish, but please but don’t get all offended. I know that a Gillette is better for shaving, and that a 5 dollar prybar is better for that purpose. We all know the obvious.
I try not to abuse my knives, but I usually pick knives that can take some abuse in case there’s no other way. I was damn glad my Buckmaster could be used as both shovel and prybar during an automobile accident in the middle of the Andes. I’ve got knives to last several lifetimes (including custom knives, brand knives, yes, a Busse too and some more expensive than Busses). I’m no genius yet I understood the question perfectly well. I’m surprised so many people not only didn’t but somehow got offended by the question along the way.
So, anyone kind enough to share what he knows?

FerFAL
 
Yes, custom makers can make a better knife!

The question to me is, could we market it that well?
 
Is a custom knife better than production knife??? Yes. Same difference as a custom built rifle is better then a Remington from a Wallmart.
Material quality? I do not worry about that. I trust in a bladesmith's choice.
Are custom knives just improved cosmetics rather than function? Please check RMLamey, and Rick Marchand,...or any other knife maker around here. I do not see any function being compromised.
Save yourself your precious time and money one day.Go custom.
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
Yes, custom makers can make a better knife!

The question to me is, could we market it that well?
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Hi, thanks for your reply. What steel would you be using? anything in particular in mind. Differential tempering, laminated, SanMai? A bit of info (not asking for any trade secret) would be appreciared.

Wasn't asking about marketing but I can assure you, put a couple videos showing that your knife is actually better and you'll sell more knives than you can make for the rest of your life.
Here's what they do to Busse's http://knifetests.com/
Do the same thing and show it to people. Heck, invest 500 bucks and get the best marketing in the world: proof. If you test a 500 buck BWM from Busee with a similar shaped knife made with your own method and it does better, not only will I gladly buy one such knife, but I'll help you spread the word, send several good customers your way at no cost.
In fact, a good friend of mine just took me up on just this. He's a metalurigc ingeneer of some sort and has industrial equipment to make pretty much anything he wants. I already bought one of the knives he claimed will outperform the Busse in tihs type of extreme test.

cro91 said:
Is a custom knife better than production knife??? Yes. Same difference as a custom built rifle is better then a Remington from a Wallmart.
Material quality? I do not worry about that. I trust in a bladesmith's choice.
Are custom knives just improved cosmetics rather than function? Please check RMLamey, and Rick Marchand,...or any other knife maker around here. I do not see any function being compromised.
Save yourself your precious time and money one day.Go custom.
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Actually no, at least not always. Some custom knives just suck. Even some made by reputable makers. I think its mostly the case of collectable knives that dont get used much at all, so you never really know how good (or bad) they are.
As I said, I own custom knives and do appreaicte forged, differential tempered blades and such. But then again none of this reffers to the questions both the OP and myslef asked.
Since you brought guns into this, If I want the best pistol in the world I just buy a Glock, I dont even bother asking for a custom made one. Weight, reliability, accuracy, magazine capacity, simplicity of repair, operators manual use, parts availabiliy. You take all this into consideration and no matter how much you may like other guns the answer is still the same.

FerFAL
 
A good knife maker who knows his craft and is well versed in correct heat treating will make a good knife that will last for a long time.

Discussions about which maker or brand is "superior" are silly since the difference between good makers should be minimal to the point where most end users would never know the difference.

The final decision always comes down to personal preference (the qualities that appeal to you most).

I say do your home work and buy what you like or fits your needs.
 
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