Can We Get Axis Locks On Everything Please?

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I want a PM2 with an axis lock

Ok that’s a reasonable request and statement.

I'm sure many of you have knives you would prefer in axis.

Not me personally. But I am not pretentious enough to speak for the collective.

It's time to start asking manufacturers why they're giving us sub par locks when we could have much better engineered ones on many models.

Sub par is your opinion. Based on lock up singularly, is not the defining factor alone that determines a lock design attributes.

Why would I want a compression, liner, or frame lock over an axis lock? Just look at the lock ups, they're not strong. All the testing I've ever seen backs that up too. Not that again it isn't obvious to every maker and me before any testing.

To answer your first question in this paragraph; all mechanisms you mention can be made to function well and meet different criteria desired.

Strength is not the only important characteristic to consumers.

Your observation of the testing pool samples does not encompass all tests done, and is in turn defined as anecdotal.

Here is a test from blade HQ on Spyderco knives at an attempt for consistency -

Fun to watch and also has some value to the testing. It certainly does paint a picture of lock strength. But again, that’s not the end-all in perceived performance of the locks attributes.

The CBBL is nice but you're not fitting that thing into most knife profiles. An axis like lock is much more adaptable to various profiles. Same with the bolt action, not gonna fit in nearly as many knives because it requires more specific positioning in the handle. .

I’m not an engineer. Do you have evidence that this is so? If so, would you provide your data to prove this?

Long story short. The lock up on your knife probably sucks if it has no springs involved. And you should be wondering why your favorite knife isn't offered with an axis lock or something based on similar principles.

“Sucks” is again...your opinion and therefore does not make it fact. You yourself have admitted the Triad is stronger. Also, liner locks and frame locks are essentially springs as they are loaded with tension.

Pride? Marketing? It's definitely not about giving the consumer the best product. It's not 1990. I want a proper lock up

Now we are getting in the weeds.

I'm staring straight at the PM2. What knife would you like to see in an axis lock? And if for whatever reason you don't want a superior lock to the one you have? Share that too

I like a variation in my folding knives as they need to fit in different roles. I don’t want my GEC slippes with a Axis. Liner and frame locks are handy to deploy and fold quickly without having to reposition my hand. Omega springs can break and render the axis difficult if not impossible to use. This along with a myriad of other reasons.


Let the makers know what we want. And for me anyway. It's not outdated locks with no lock up strength

Makers are making because they do make what we want. If they didn’t they probably wouldn’t still be in business.


Lastly. Welcome to BladeForums!
 
MolokaiRider said:
I want a PM2 with an axis lock

Ok that’s a reasonable request and statement.

I'm sure many of you have knives you would prefer in axis.

Not me personally. But I am not pretentious enough to speak for the collective.

It's time to start asking manufacturers why they're giving us sub par locks when we could have much better engineered ones on many models.

Sub par is your opinion. Based on lock up singularly, is not the defining factor alone that determines a lock design attributes.

Why would I want a compression, liner, or frame lock over an axis lock? Just look at the lock ups, they're not strong. All the testing I've ever seen backs that up too. Not that again it isn't obvious to every maker and me before any testing.

To answer your first question in this paragraph; all mechanisms you mention can be made to function well and meet different criteria desired.

Strength is not the only important characteristic to consumers.

Your observation of the testing pool samples does not encompass all tests done, and is in turn defined as anecdotal.

Here is a test from blade HQ on Spyderco knives at an attempt for consistency -

Fun to watch and also has some value to the testing. It certainly does paint a picture of lock strength. But again, that’s not the end-all in perceived performance of the locks attributes.

The CBBL is nice but you're not fitting that thing into most knife profiles. An axis like lock is much more adaptable to various profiles. Same with the bolt action, not gonna fit in nearly as many knives because it requires more specific positioning in the handle. .

I’m not an engineer. Do you have evidence that this is so? If so, would you provide your data to prove this?

Long story short. The lock up on your knife probably sucks if it has no springs involved. And you should be wondering why your favorite knife isn't offered with an axis lock or something based on similar principles.

“Sucks” is again...your opinion and therefore does not make it fact. You yourself have admitted the Triad is stronger. Also, liner locks and frame locks are essentially springs as they are loaded with tension.

Pride? Marketing? It's definitely not about giving the consumer the best product. It's not 1990. I want a proper lock up

Now we are getting in the weeds.

I'm staring straight at the PM2. What knife would you like to see in an axis lock? And if for whatever reason you don't want a superior lock to the one you have? Share that too

I like a variation in my folding knives as they need to fit in different roles. I don’t want my GEC slippes with a Axis. Liner and frame locks are handy to deploy and fold quickly without having to reposition my hand. Omega springs can break and render the axis difficult if not impossible to use. This along with a myriad of other reasons.


Let the makers know what we want. And for me anyway. It's not outdated locks with no lock up strength

Makers are making because they do make what we want. If they didn’t they probably wouldn’t still be in business.


Lastly. Welcome to BladeForums!
Click to expand...

Hi there

I would say frame locks and liner locks require you to reposition your hand....And put your thumb in the blades path as well. While also being weaker. They are vastly inferior to the axis/cbb except flippers apparently. And the benefit would be only sensory.

There are stronger locks yes. But none that do not give up a significant amount of ease of use.

The only real competitor is the compression lock from an ease of use standpoint. And the side placement is better than under your thumb.

So beyond a harder use case where you're willing to give up that ease of use. Axis/CBBL reigns supreme as the all rounder

As to whether or not makers do what we want....I don't know about all that. I would say knife making is a lot better to consumers than many other industries...But the incentive in our economic system is to make money not necessarily make the best product they could. The market will force change eventually but I'd prefer to speed that up
 
BigWillie said:
It also needs to be socially acceptable where you're at. And a fixed blade or push dagger as the only knife I carry would not be acceptable in many social settings I'm in. The same reason I'm sure many of you don't carry a fixed blade.

Maybe it's not possible to fit something like an axis lock in a PM2 handle without losing structural integrity. But assuming it's not I would much prefer the axis or CBBL.

Yes as long as it doesn't fail everything will be fine. But why would I want that when i could have some sort of spring mechanism that's in theory much stronger. 100 pounds of dynamic force is a lot but when the adrenaline pumping and your body weighs 200 pounds.....I think we're well within range of if not me many of you could exert. Assuming you could double the lock up strength with no major cons, that seems like a good idea

I suppose if you're some 6'8" 300 pounder the PM2 is a bit small for you anyway. So maybe my body type is more aligned with what should be expected from the knife.
Click to expand...
Whilst it's true, that an EDC needs to be both socially and legally acceptable, it's also just ingrained in most to be carrying a folding knife.
A Spyderco Street Beat is a small fixed blade and would be an excellent EDC, where legal.
Since you feel the need for the strongest knife possible, just buy and carry the small fixed blade SB and presto, you won't have to worry about the knife folding on you. With the SB or similar, you'll have a knife, which is stronger than many folders.
Don't know where body type comes into play, I'm 6'4 and use both small and big knives. As mentioned, PM2, PITS, DF, Delica etc. Also have K2. I like them all. I'll gladly use a slip joint but as for locking folders, the back lock is plenty strong and a favorite of mine.

Edit; I don't own any axis nor triad locking knives and quite frankly don't have a desire to buy any.
 
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I rushed out to buy a Benchmade 710 when it was first released. The first day I owned it one of the omega springs broke. The other spring still activated the lock but it would lag, stick and engage unevenly. Never really been a fan of axis locks since then. I lost all faith in the omega springs. I've owned a couple axis locks since then. None of the other omega springs have broken but I've never used them much.
I'm sure it's been mentioned that the axis lock is now an open design lock since the patent has expired. Any company could use it on their knives now.
My favorite locks and execution of design would be the CRK frame lock, Spyderco compression lock and any of the fine back locks on the market.
 
Have you disassembled and reassembled an axis lock knife?
It was definitely not a breeze for me.
 
Having used liner locks and frame locks for approx 20 yrs, there's a good bit of habit to overcome when I use a compression or axis lock. My thumb goes for a release that isn't there, then I have to think about (or look to see) what knife I am carrying. I don't dislike either lock...but I wouldn't want either on every knife I own.
Besides, with the exception of when I'm working, I generally carry both a folder and a fixed blade.
 
miso2 said:
Have you disassembled and reassembled an axis lock knife?
It was definitely not a breeze for me.
Click to expand...
Actually they're not that hard. I have taken apart my 580 four times. Once to clean it (got it in very used condition), second to de-assist it, third to re-assist it and fourth to locktite the pivot (I forgot to do it on the third time).

Recently, I had to take my 940-2 (now a 943-2) apart to make new omega springs. I now consider myself a "Benchmade Tech".:p:cool:
 
colin.p said:
Actually they're not that hard. I have taken apart my 580 four times. Once to clean it (got it in very used condition), second to de-assist it, third to re-assist it and fourth to locktite the pivot (I forgot to do it on the third time).

Recently, I had to take my 940-2 (now a 943-2) apart to make new omega springs. I now consider myself a "Benchmade Tech".:p:cool:
Click to expand...


Yeah, it was not too hard, but not easy either.
I guess you can get an assembler job at Benchmade now!
 
OP's Kool-Aid Man tactics aside, I do agree with the notion that frame/liner locks on everything is dated. I've been buying modern folders since the 90s and watched the progression in manufacturing tech. Back then it was really common for manufacturers to stack aluminum cutouts to make scales. If you're familiar the the CAM term 2.5D machining, you know what I mean. ATS34 was everywhere.

Now you see some fantastic manufacturing techniques on very inexpensive knives but I feel like as a whole we've not put much effort into locks. There are new designs but the vast majority are the same tech we used 20+ years ago. There's no reason to change something that's not broke but I'm to the point where I'm not willing to spend money on a modern folder that forces me to put my fingers in front of the blade to open or close it. Not only that but full one handed operation without doing some sort of gymnastics, which rules out back locks too.

In the last 4-6 weeks I've bought:

Protech Sprint
Protech SBR
Spyderco Autonomy 2
Benchmade Valet
Benchmade Grip
Benchmade Ritter Grip
Microtech Ultratech
Microtech UTX-85
Microtech UTX-70

I'm going to have to check out the ball bearing, compression and bolt locks from Spyderco.
 
Serious question for the Axis Forces here (heh, couldn't resist the jab :D): With the open space around the slide of the lock, how resistant to mud and dirt and other debris is the mechanism? I know my older locks will function in really bad conditions and I can operate them with frozen or gloved or even mittened hands, in the slippery guts of animals, retrieve them from pockets swimming with hay, and pull them from mud and expect them to work. Of course the Buck 110 comes to mind, as that's what I'm usually carrying, but the Opinel N°12 and SAK Trekker also hold up in the aforementioned conditions.

I ask this seriously because, as I said, I am ignorant.

Zieg
 
I just came in from batoning my Case Peanut through a toothpick ...

but this ease of use you keep bringing up ... other than slip joints ... I do not own a folder (with several different types of locks including a couple back locks) that I can't operate easily and safely one handed ... so that theroy is floating away in the pile of :poop: you keep trying to force on everyone.

So if you don't have the dexterity or hand strength or whatever your excuse is that an axis lock in so superior ... maybe it's a "you" problem ... and not a "lock" problem ...
 
The Zieg said:
Serious question for the Axis Forces here (heh, couldn't resist the jab :D): With the open space around the slide of the lock, how resistant to mud and dirt and other debris is the mechanism? I know my older locks will function in really bad conditions and I can operate them with frozen or gloved or even mittened hands, in the slippery guts of animals, retrieve them from pockets swimming with hay, and pull them from mud and expect them to work. Of course the Buck 110 comes to mind, as that's what I'm usually carrying, but the Opinel N°12 and SAK Trekker also hold up in the aforementioned conditions.

I ask this seriously because, as I said, I am ignorant.

Zieg
Click to expand...
I will try and answer your question as best as I can, which more than likely is not very good. The axis mechanism is a little finicky and complicated to use in messy conditions however, a rinse under a running tap should clean it out sufficiently though.

Now I don't use any folder in messy conditions as I never find myself in those conditions. I cut meat for a living (45 years) and I would never use a folding knife to cut meat of any kind nor any food prep. If I was to anticipate messy conditions, I would use the proper knife for that and that of course would be a fixed blade, sooooo much easier to clean. But some may find themselves using what they brung so as usual YMMV.
 
This thread has gotten more ridiculous.

The op tries to talk for all of us. Ridiculous.

The op essentially keeps dismissing that the axis lock has on inherent flaw: the omega springs breaking. Yet, he also argues that locks without springs are inferior. Once again ignoring the obvious, in that most modern locks are or involve springs. It's a logical fail. Ridiculous.

I love the axis lock from benchmade. I've never had an omega spring fail. It's undeniable that it is a basic point of failure though.

That said, there is another inherent flaw in the design that I don't think has been mentioned (forgive me if it has, this has been a long crazy thread).

Detent.

The detent on an axis lock knife is non-existent. These are overwhelmingly the easiest knives to have their detent overcome, in my experience. I won't carry an axis lock knife doing certain activities, even if the spine of the blade is against the seam of a pocket. Sometimes I don't have pockets. The axis lock is the last lock I would ever want in such a situation. Spyderco Pacific salt is what I trust there.

OP, you're argument is flawed. Don't speak for all of us. If this is a serious post and not a troll job, please look at the responses you are getting and take them to heart.
 
I like the axis lock and carry one for work along with a buck 110. I have 3 knives with it and have had one in particular for many years. I’ve never had an axis lock fail but I’m not fool enough to think it can’t. You can make any lock design fail on purpose. I like all kinds of locks; lock backs, liner locks, axis locks, I even own a rollock. Any locking knife, I use it like it DON’T lock. I use them the same way I use slip joints. The fact that it DOES lock is simply an added bonus to me but I don’t depend on it. I don’t kid myself into thinking any lock design is the only game in town though.

If I were solely carrying a knife for protection it’d be a fixed blade like a Buck 120, Ka Bar fighting utility, or my ESEE 4.
 
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