Canola oil advantages

[mgysgthath]

unky_gumbi asked where to find some Houghton and I have a source in Canada for him, but I'm not sure if it's against the rules to post this information (also don't want to derail Tai's thread on Canola -- which I personally use). If this seems appropriate please let me know and I'll post it.

 

[BMK]

Nicely done, Nathan. A very sensible, balanced and well reasoned comment.

 

[Tai Goo]

unky_gumbi asked where to find some Houghton and I have a source in Canada for him, but I'm not sure if it's against the rules to post this information (also don't want to derail Tai's thread on Canola -- which I personally use). If this seems appropriate please let me know and I'll post it.

Go ahead.

 

[mgysgthath]

This is from an email from Rob at knifemaker.ca, a supplier in BC.
"Steve at Can-Four has been very helpful to us and now stocks quenchants for knifemakers in reasonable (20L and other) sizes. 403-860-5057" (I'm pretty sure Can Four is in BC).

Also from my own correspondence with Houghton directly I got this reply from Carmella at Houghton about Ontario suppliers:
"Pls contact the area rep:Bernard Soucy 514-497-2931".

I have not contacted Bernard yet, as I already know Can Four has 20L sizes for knifemakers, but you might be able to save on shipping if you buy within Ontario.

Thanks Tai

 

[Rick Marchand]

unky_gumbi asked where to find some Houghton and I have a source in Canada for him, but I'm not sure if it's against the rules to post this information (also don't want to derail Tai's thread on Canola -- which I personally use). If this seems appropriate please let me know and I'll post it.

Houghton ships direct in Canada. You can leave him a visitor message, if you want.

Nevermind.... Tai gave his blessing...:thumbup:

 

[Tai Goo]

I stumbled onto the vegetable oils myself about 17 years ago. At that time, it seemed like most guys were still using ATF, brake fluid, and motor oil,… car stuff, including me. Anyway, I decided to try some vegetable oil, mainly because I didn’t like the smell of the car stuff and was looking for something fast for simple carbon steels. I do think that canola is the most durable, and lasts longer than the others I tried.

... It's kind of cool for me to see it so widely used now.

I guess you can tell I like it.

 

[BMK]

I like it because it works.

I stumbled onto the vegetable oils myself about 17 years ago. At that time, it seemed like most guys were still using ATF, brake fluid, and motor oil,… car stuff, including me. Anyway, I decided to try some vegetable oil, mainly because I didn’t like the smell of the car stuff and was looking for something fast for simple carbon steels. I do think that canola is the most durable, and lasts longer than the others I tried.

... It's kind of cool for me to see it so widely used now.

I guess you can tell I like it.

 

[richard j]

unky_gumbi asked where to find some Houghton and I have a source in Canada for him, but I'm not sure if it's against the rules to post this information (also don't want to derail Tai's thread on Canola -- which I personally use). If this seems appropriate please let me know and I'll post it.

send him an email with the info.

 

[Tai Goo]

... was never too crazy about the smell of mineral oil either.

 

[Deweyknives]

And to whomever said they don't use canola because they're not into "cheap and simple", I would argue that "simple" is exactly why most of us are using P50.

Just to clarify: By 'cheap & easy' I was refering to PRICE & AVAILABILITY. I started with used oils,sludge,goo,slime until I had an idea of what I was doing. As I learned more about metalurgy and the science of quenching, I listened to respected persons willing to share knowledge, experience and proven facts. I read studies and mfg. sheets and data and drew my personal conclusion from ALL of it. It took some work but I was able to track down both P50 & Parks AAA. As I had spent $1000 on a digital oven, I wanted quench oils on the same level. I'm not puting down canola oil as a quenchant, or anybody who chooses to use it, just saying that I prefer products that fit my needs. I use mainly W2,W1,1095 and 01. These steels all like one extreme or the other and I don't like to compromise. I spent close to 30 years in shops as a mechanic/bodyman/collision/paint tech and have seen first hand how 'loosely' some interprit 'this works just fine'.

Lots of new folks show up here all the time. I want to encourage them to do their own homework and testing and SEE what works for them for their set-up and goals, and not just go by 'He said this is good enough'. For 1080/1084 & a forge HT, canola may be ideal, but I can't tell ya that from MY experience.

For now, I'll stick with my quench oils. Enviromental reasons would be the only thing that would make me look elsewhere.

 

[stevomiller]

An engineer with one of the commercial quenchant companies stated in a few other forums that canola oil can be an exceptional quench medium. He did not compare its speed to any of the commercial oils, so no help there as far as what steels it is appropriate for. Issues he mentioned were water content, variation lot to lot, and oxidation. Water content could be driven off by slowly stepping up and then holding the oil at waters boiling point and then tightly covering when not in use. Viscocity and cooling rate variability would need to be evaluated for each sample. Finally, he stated that canola was quite stable and most worries of rancidity/oxidation are overstated.

 

[Tai Goo]

I think environmental (health and safety) issues should be a concern. If they aren’t already, I think they will become more so in the future. Even though the current custom/handmade knife phenomenon is a fringe industry,… every little bit helps.

 

[Drew Riley]

If I spent >$20/gallon on a fluid and had it shipped across a continent it would be difficult for me to understand how a fluid that cost $5/gallon and could be purchased at the supermarket was as good or arguably superior.

To give a similiar analogy, I've seen many makers make just as good of a knife on a $30 harbor freight 1x30 than some other makers have been able to achieve on their $2500 KMG setup.

Now, one could say that a lot of R&D went into the fabrication of the KMG, that it's a more complex machine, or that it's made with better materials with greater precision in a very controlled environment, with greater attention to detail, quality control, etc...

But at the end of the day, it's still just an inanimate tool; a means to a very similar end.

Now, personally, I'd rather have a KMG than an HF1x30, but I can make knives with both.

 

[BMK]

I received almost identical information from a major heat treating company in Fort Worth that does not sell quenchants of any kind.

An engineer with one of the commercial quenchant companies stated in a few other forums that canola oil can be an exceptional quench medium.

 

[Rick Marchand]

To give a similiar analogy, I've seen many makers make just as good of a knife on a $30 harbor freight 1x30 than some other makers have been able to achieve on their $2500 KMG setup.

Now, one could say that a lot of R&D went into the fabrication of the KMG, that it's a more complex machine, or that it's made with better materials with greater precision in a very controlled environment, with greater attention to detail, quality control, etc...

But at the end of the day, it's still just an inanimate tool; a means to a very similar end.

Now, personally, I'd rather have a KMG than an HF1x30, but I can make knives with both.

It all depends on what is important to you. I use a $400 Grizzly grinder. I have seen blades that Wally Hayes made on a 1x30 that rival the best of the best. BMK makes a sarcastic but thought provoking comment. He chooses to focus on quenchant but as you say, the tables could be flipped to ask why he uses a $1800 kiln when makers do just fine on a $50 homebuilt forge or just farm out HT all together. His primate friendly shop is "evolving" quickly for various reasons... speed, accuracy, consistancy, independence or just plain fun.

Funny thing is when I read...

If I spent >$20/gallon on a fluid and had it shipped across a continent it would be difficult for me to understand how a fluid that cost $5/gallon and could be purchased at the supermarket was as good or arguably superior.

... I think of the fact that I invested $100 on a 5gal pail of HQ-K, that is engineered for consistancy and will never lose any of its properties in my lifetime. Canola on the otherhand needs to be changed a couple times a year at least. So at $5/gal for a 5gal tank that is $25 a change out. Even at twice a year you are over $100 in 2 years..... so who is saving a buck in the end and who is walking the aisles at the supermarket more than he has to?

 

[lazlo]

Canola oil advantages

#1. Low price
#2. Great availability
...

Can you think of any others?

mmm... Donuts!

Tai's quote is from a Houghton paper by Scott McKenzie (I think he occasionally posts here?):
http://books.google.com/books?id=io9laaRnoswC&pg=PA228

"The most widely used quenchant for ferrous alloys are petroleum-based quenchants due to its favorable heat extraction characteristics.
The dependence upon imported oil, price vulnerability, and contamination potential has caused suppliers to investigate alternative source
of quench oil base stock. There are many reasons why vegetable-based oils have seen increased interest. The primary reasons are:

* Increased environmental regulation
* Need to reduce the reliance on imported petroleum
* Increased environmental awareness."

 

[Tai Goo]

... I think of the fact that I invested $100 on a 5gal pail of HQ-K, that is engineered for consistancy and will never lose any of its properties in my lifetime. Canola on the otherhand needs to be changed a couple times a year at least. So at $5/gal for a 5gal tank that is $25 a change out. Even at twice a year you are over $100 in 2 years..... so who is saving a buck in the end and who is walking the aisles at the supermarket more than he has to?

If you take good care of your canola, and treat it with some respect, it will last a good while. I’ve heard of some guys that have stretched 5 gallons several years.

But it is possible that it might come down to a choice between laying out one larger lump of money at one time vs. laying out smaller amounts over a period of time and which best suits your circumstances or preferences etc.

 

[lazlo]

By the way, as was stated by several posters in the "Hype" thread, canola oil is a medium speed oil, equivalent to Parks AAA or Houghto-Quench G.

 

[Tai Goo]

So,... canola is actually the choice medium of the rich and famous.

I can live with that! LOL

 

[Tai Goo]

Seriously,... I get a couple/few fresh gallons every few times I quench a 1095 blade. LOL

,,, but I'm hard on my canola.

Who can't afford that in the quest for the "hype free" quench?