Canola oil advantages

Tai Goo said:
It's apples and oranges bud. Let's just leave it at that O.K.?

"We aren't trying to hype canola here, just trying to establish that it is an "acceptable" and valid quenching medium for steel, with a few advantages of it's own."
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Yes and yes.
 
JasonSCarter said:
Guy's I;m very hesitant to post, but it seems the "my quenchant is better than yours" voices, have been, well...quenched, so here goes, Like most of you I too used Canola in the early years, and was very happy with it, at the time. as I progressed I of course went the "real" quenchant way, but have recently tried something else, and I;d like your opinion on it. I call it "Hillbilly 50" as it's VERY fast, and works great for me and my methods. Recipe is as follows. I have a 2.5 gal quench tank...
1 gal of Kerosene,
3qt of food grade mineral oil
8oz of Blue Dawn dish soap (as a surfactant)
4.4oz bottle of Jet Dry (as a wetter)

I generally use W1, W2, and 1095, occasionally 1084. and I'm getting FABULOUS results from it.
Have any of you tried to make your own before and if so, how'd ya do it?

Jason S. Carter
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I think that's a whole thread in itself, Jason. Open one up.... I am interested in the response.
 
Rick,

You summed up up in a very diplomatic way: "Essentially, we are seeing the divide between those who delve deeper and become more involved in the metallurgy of heat treat and those who want to make a good knife and not worry about the science of it all. Neither is wrong if they remain honest to their respective methods."

For me, Canola is a quenchant that is a means to the end of making a good knife. For some, Quenchants become a blissful end unto themselves.
 
JasonSCarter,

The same Heat Treat Company that I cited earlier in this thread told me that any oil will work fine to quench oil hardened steels. I asked him about special formulations and he smiled. I like your innovative, non-conformist and rugged individualist approach - carry on!
 
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I find it interesting when reading my trusting "Heat Treating Data Book" about heat treating on page 69 it says

" A still, 5% caustic soda quenching solution is one of the fastest and most efficient quenching solution is one of the fastest and most efficient quenching baths except that it is corrosive to clothing and hands and is rarely necessary for most heat treating work. "

"Oil for quenching should have a high flash point, low viscosity, constant composition and should be maintained at temperatures from 140*-160* F."

For oil is seems Canola meets their criteria.

Has anyone tried their caustic quenching solution?
 
From the information I’ve read, ( Phil's link included) it sounds like the real hang up with vegetable oils for industrial, high volume, application is with the stability, not so much the speed or effectiveness. I’ve often had the feeling that it wouldn’t be worth it to try and improve on or stabilize the canola. With it’s low price, it just seems to make better sense to take care of it and change it out occasionally. Since custom/handmade knifemaking is more of a low volume cottage type industry, vegetables oils “as is” do have their appeal. I only make maybe 5-10 1095 (likes canola relatively fresh best) blades per year and probably not over 50 per year all in all.

Maybe I should have said in the OP,… “As it pertains to a quenching medium for steel, from a pragmatic relativistic point of view."
 
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AVigil said:
" A still, 5% caustic soda quenching solution is one of the fastest and most efficient quenching solution is one of the fastest and most efficient quenching baths except that it is corrosive to clothing and hands and is rarely necessary for most heat treating work. "
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"Caustic soda" is lye: sodium hydroxide. A very old, and common quenchant.

I was just talking to Jim Hrisoulas this week, and he mentioned that he quenches W2 in hot bluing salts: boiling sodium hydroxide.
 
JasonSCarter said:
I call it "Hillbilly 50" as it's VERY fast, and works great for me and my methods. Recipe is as follows. I have a 2.5 gal quench tank...
1 gal of Kerosene,
3qt of food grade mineral oil
8oz of Blue Dawn dish soap (as a surfactant)
4.4oz bottle of Jet Dry (as a wetter)
Click to expand...

That's interesting Jason -- fast commercial quench oils have an accelerator: a solvent, like kerosene, to reduce the oil's viscosity. Sounds like you've reverse-engineered Parks 50 :)
 
lazlo said:
That's interesting Jason -- fast commercial quench oils have an accelerator: a solvent, like kerosene, to reduce the oil's viscosity. Sounds like you've reverse-engineered Parks 50 :)
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LOL P50 does smell a bit like kerosene, I'd like to give that hillbilly 50 a try.
 
If you're going to call it Hillbilly 50, you've got to throw a little moonshine in. :)
 
Here's that link of Phil's again:
http://www.industrialheating.com/Articles/Feature_Article/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000001097301

Quote:
"A brief historical overview of the use of vegetable oils as quenchants for steel has been provided. It was also shown that the quenching mechanism exhibited by vegetable oils is fundamentally different than that traditionally observed for petroleum-oil quenchants. While vegetable oils mediate cooling predominantly by convective heat transfer, petroleum oils exhibit an inherently non-uniform mechanism involving full-film boiling, nucleate boiling and convective cooling with often very different heat-transfer coefficients."
 
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Tai, by the way about PDFs, try Foxit Reader.. it's free and much smaller/faster than Adobe. Foxitsoftware.com to get it. I am not meaning to advertise, but I work in the PC industry and I've found it works well.
 
One distinction that I think might be made in the issue of industrial adoption of canola vs commercial quenchants, is likely price, but in the other direction.

Even though commercial quenchants are pricey for us in the small volumes we consume, considering the petroleum base, I imagine that in the large wholesale scale, industrial(petroleum based) quench mediums are likely less expensive than canola based ones. In fact, the article being linked here mentions "price" as one of the disadvantages of vegetable oils, it makes sense, when you factor in all the markets that utilize these oils for other purposes, such as the food industry, the bio fuel industries, lubricant industries, etc. etc.

Something that many don't seem to realize here, the vast adoption of "petroleum" based oil bases by industry has almost zero to do with efficiency for the task, but the fact that until recently they were often the absolute cheapest and most abundant base material available. That's why even though plastics were invented using peanut oil, they ended up being made over the decades after the invention almost entirely out of petroleum based oils, much of which I believe were by-products of crude refined for other use. The skyrocketing of oil prices along with environmental concerns are one of the main reasons why most industries are constantly seeking other alternatives for any petro-chemical based products, and it's generally a win-win for them since they can play the "green" aspect of it up also.

The assumption that "industry" only does the best work they can, is a serious leap of faith, especially considering how much evidence there is to the contrary. Lets never forget that most large businesses exist almost entirely for the pursuit of profit. (with some exceptions I'm sure) We don't trust politicians, lawyers, used car salesmen, etc, why should we expect that any corporation is in pursuit of the *best* product, as opposed to the most profitable "good-enough product", that's just a little bit better than the competition's similar fare?


I expect we're going to see a ton of vegetable based new quenchants coming on to market soon, if there aren't already a ton we're not aware of, and eventually, I doubt there will be many petroleum based ones, and I doubt you'll find industry be-moaning the good old days of those quenchants if the profits are still good.


I admit, that's a bit of a rant, sorry, if it's off-base, feel free to delete.
 
so... how DO you dispose of your canola?
ironically, it's easier for me to drive my waste motor oil to the transfer station 2mi away and dispose of it for free in the recycling container than to... uh... what am I doing to do with all this canola? I don't have a diesel.

-Daizee
 
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