Carothers/Loriendesign Chopper WiP

I've thought many times about framing the drawing you sent me and hanging it on the wall as art.

Which reminds me- we should revisit that, maybe this winter sometime? ;)

this makes me feel giddy...like you finally just presented me with an engagement ring :eek::D
Thank you very much for the props, John. I've been hankerin to work with you for a couple years- ready when you are buddy!

Lorien, great project. Looking forward to watching this one come to life.

As John mentioned, the drawings are art as well.

Bing

thank you, Bing. Working with you is a blast, and I eagerly anticipate the next opportunity:thumbup:

Pretty cool! Why not give a knife like that a FFG? Also, if it's a chopper, why does it need a choil? I'm not knocking what you've designed, I'm just curious.

Not sure what an FFG is exactly, but I hope to answer this, and any other questions peeps might have regarding the nuances of the design in my next post.

Thank you all very much for your kind words, they are greatly appreciated and mean a lot to me :)
 
Like I said at the outset, the outcome from my end would incorporate Nathan's aesthetic preferences and manufacturing techniques. Many small changes were made the result is what you saw in my last photo.

Before I sent the scaled model and original sketch to Nathan, he asked me to explain what I was thinking wrt handle design, primarily. Below is my answer.

I know, tl;dr :) But still, it might provide additional insight into this project if you care


*****


there are a number of handholds; choked up, forward grip with thumb on spine, chopping grip, and two reach enhancing grips.

behind the guard, the grip flares out toward the platform in the middle of the grip where the grip is the widest. It is swelled at this point and then tapers until it reaches the pommel, which is bulbous and aids retention is the rearward, reach enhancing grips. The handle dimensions are slightly oversized. In my experience, a grip that is a little fatter decreases the chances of cramping and is more comfortable during heavy use.

the scallop at the jimping is a hook for the web of skin between thumb and fore finger. In the choked up position, with the index finger in the choil, (which is chamfered), this scallop pulls at the web of skin there, providing no slip grip. The jimping should be semi aggressive, in that it will be a little deep, but with the chamfered spine shouldn't cause much in the way of a hotspot for this grip position which if for fine cuts, not chopping. The front of the handle also features one scallop per side, which gives more comfort and control in the choked up grip.

the forward grip, with forefinger immediately behind the guard, places the pad of the thumb over the jimping for controlled chops. The ring finger sits at the platform in the palm swell, providing massive grip strength, keeping the knife from sliding forward in hand during repeated chops. The ring finger is the 'judo' finger and provides a very strong grip

the chopping grip places the pinky right at the beak of the handle to lock the hand in. The curvature of that area bunches the pinky and ring finger together, creating an awesomely strong judo grip, while the middle finger rests on the platform, which has some flat planes, to keep the knife from twisting laterally under heavy loads. The kick at the top of the butt interfaces with the heel of the hand, providing a platform to control swing-through and arrest forward motion of the knife quickly. Both the beak and the heel kick are rounded so as to avoid hotspots. The web of skin between thumb and forefinger wraps over the palm swell, providing an elastic interface for snap cuts.

as the hand moves back on the handle, middle and ring fingers move into the pinky well and the forefinger rests at the palm swell platform to aid in lateral control. The pinky wraps behind the pommel. This grip increases tip speed, leverage, reach and power at the expense of control. Only to be used with a stable target.

the other rearward grip places the pommel in the palm, with fore and middle fingers in the pinky well. This is only a reach enhancing grip and wouldn't provide enough control for safe chopping.

the lanyard hole is at the front of the handle, below the scallop. It would be a flared tube. I didn't drill my model out because it's cedar and delicate. For a chopper, a forward lanyard is superior in the sense that, used correctly, it can be a power multiplier and slingshots the blade. It is also more effective at arresting the knife mid swing.

the handle is designed with two stabbing grips; one with the thumb over the pommel, and the other choked up with the handle completely gripped

the blade would have a fuller, in order to increase surface area, decrease overall weight and because you can do it and it will look cool. The grind is designed to get steeper out toward the tip in order to have a slightly fatter edge up there which would handle abuse better.

I haven't designed the handle skeletonizing, as I thought I'd leave that to you, but I certainly can draw it in if you like.
 
Ok then. Questions answered. Best of luck with the design and build. I'm sure it will turn out as you expect. And, your renderings are top notch.
 
Oh, this is gonna be good. I like both of the designs, but the second one does look particularly nice.
 
for someone who uses acronyms regularly, I sure hate them sometimes.

Nathan sent me his thoughts on the approach taken toward turning this idea into something useful;

some thoughts on a FFG

Dan Keffeler recommended a fairly narrow range for the primary grind angles, which was substantiated in my research leading up to this project. So, for me coming into this, certain aspects of the geometry were predetermined values. When you're starting with a specific geometry that starts at the edge, you'll see that to do a FFG would require a more narrow blade or a thicker spine. A narrow blade loses impact energy flexing. A thicker spine would be useful on something where you want a heavy blade, but isn't what I wanted on a lighter woods knife.

Also, a FFG doesn't work well with a fuller. I like using a fuller on something like this so we can adjust the distribution of mass with the blade cross section rather than being limited to changes only in the profile.


*****

Keep in mind that you are still at the sketch phase. Many changes have occurred since then, so don't take any of what you've seen thus far to be the final word.
 
Lorien,
first of all, it looks like a way-cool idea, and I am interested in the design process as well as Nathan's unique way of working. I am excited about the thread.

The little finger projections coming off of the palm swell - do they potentially cause hot spots? I personally don't use those on things because I am afraid they would after long use. Not a criticism at all, just a question. After all, this is a design thread, and this gives me a chance to learn from your experience.

edited to add: I don't make many of this style. I heat treat a lot for other people, but I don't usually make them myself. So, I am curious what you think about handle construction.

thanks,

Kevin
 
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I love the profile! The handle looks like it would lock right in to your hand.

What's your plan with the fuller? You left it open near the tip, so I'm guessing that you are undecided how to terminate it? I also think that the fuller would flow better if it started in line with the plunge, rather than behind the plunge.
 
I love the profile! The handle looks like it would lock right in to your hand.

What's your plan with the fuller? You left it open near the tip, so I'm guessing that you are undecided how to terminate it? I also think that the fuller would flow better if it started in line with the plunge, rather than behind the plunge.
Can't speak for him but I guess the fuller is in one perfect plane but runs out towards the tip because of the distal taper of the blade itself.
I think that's a cool design. Also the decreasing fuller depth allows the groove to run so far forwards without reducing strength at the tip.
 
And now, for something completely different...



Here's where things get interesting! So far, what you've seen mostly came from me, however a lot of the changes and refinements from the initial concept to my finished drawing and model were the result of ongoing dialogue. Dialogue is crucial to projects like this.

What you see in the picture above occurred subsequent to my initial work. It is a very different medium, and I greatly enjoy the contrast created through this digital rendering and my primitive drafting approach.

Nathan was able to take what I'd drawn, (shown in the bottom right corner with the graphic overlaid onto the original) and use his chosen tools to bring the pattern into alignment with his body of work, his goals for this tool, and to tweak it in order to work with his manufacturing methods.

Here is what he had to say about the changes he made to what you've seen up to this point;

This a screen shot of the preliminary CAD model of the chopper. There are a few tweaks as a design goes from concept to production. None of this is in stone and I'd value your input.

This is 3/16" stock with 4 degree grinds and .015" at the edge. Thicker material would require more a obtuse grind angle and less land for a fuller. I felt the additional weight and fatter grinds might make it cumbersome so I currently have this at .1875.

I bumped the blade length up to 9 1/2" and beefed up the guard.

I didn't do the double bump in the handle. I've been evaluating a bunch of choppers the last few months and I agree with you that a longer grip that offers more grips options is the way to go, but I think this can be done with a conventional belly and avoid potential hot spot issues inexperienced users might run into using it wrong. My focus group of both experienced and inexperienced users tended to shy away from that feature. I think it's probably a good idea but I don't think I want to use it here. I was otherwise faithful to your profile and dimensions.

Your drawing seemed to show the handle cross section to be very rounded, but your model was pretty boxy. I have gone with something in between. I will prototype it and make changes to it after evaluating different prototypes.

Current weight is 15.7 oz and balance point about an inch in front of the scales. I stopped the fuller midway to keep weight in the tip. We might need to tweak the tip to get more weight out there and increase the moment of inertia but I'll start with this.

What is your initial reaction? Do you see any errors? Is there anything you would change before I move forward?
 
I sure am liking it. Very appealing lines, in my opinion.

It seems there is a bit less belly and the edge profile leading to the tip is a bit more turned up with this iteration. I'm guessing that this be to enhance the chopping function?

Enjoying this project very much. Thank you guys. Mike
 
I'm a total caveman when it comes to computer graphics. Just never really got into when I was in school, and I'm kicking myself for that now.

But, I can use 'Paint' in a rudimentary fashion, so I made my suggestions for tweaks using that;

 
I sure am liking it. Very appealing lines, in my opinion.

It seems there is a bit less belly and the edge profile leading to the tip is a bit more turned up with this iteration. I'm guessing that this be to enhance the chopping function?

Enjoying this project very much. Thank you guys. Mike

here is an answer from the man himself;


It was going to move weight to the front, but not very efficiently so it was probably a mistake on my part because the chopping sweet spot became basically flat.

The center of percussion is going to be around the front of the fuller, the center of gravity is about an inch ahead of the scales and the sweet spot for chopping is going to be some point between the two, farther back than people realize. Your original design had some curvature there that I think will enhance chopping so rev B was tweaked to reflect that.
 
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