Carothers Performance Knives, Use & Abuse

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beeinak said:
Thank you for sending it in. I found the edge retention amazing.
Get yourself an SDFK!
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Thanks. At first I wasn't sure, but I did want more people to see these knives and what they are capable of.

I wish I could get me a SDFK, but the BFK is the most expensive knife that I own, all my others are budget blades. I wanted something really nice to take on jobs. I liked the purpose of the BFK as Nathan said it - the most approachable way for someone to get into D3V.
 
What in the drama just happened here?!

I tried to count the number of times he chopped the metal pole before failure. Hard to count accurately with the sped up footage and editing cuts, but it was something like 123 (had to play at 1/4 speed)! Lol! I think my knife is pretty safe with my level of cardio fitness.

Would be interesting to see a cutting competition with the sharpened pry bars that pass this abusive testing. Then the viewer could decide: do I want to chop metal poles, or effectively and efficiently cut things?
 
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It is strange to me the people who measure the excellence of a knife solely by how unbreakable it is. In my opinion, it is a very shallow understanding of what makes a good knife, but there does seem to be a minority of people who look at how unbreakable a knife is as being the only factor at the expense of everything else.

I look at that test and my take away from it is that if anything it is overbuilt. Had it broken earlier in the test, that would be different. Had it not been subjected to an enormous amount of extremely rough use, that would be different. But the way viewed that test, I felt like that was an extremely good showing of an extreme amount of exceptionally rough use. I would be very curious to know if any knife approaching the cutting ability and edge retention that we have in the BFK has gotten anywhere close to it.

The Delta heat treat process for CPM-3V yields a rockwell hardness of 60.5. I settled on this heat treat because it gave the best edge retention through superior edge stability and it is exceptionally durable, but if I were unconcerned about edge retention and I were to draw it back to 58 like the Cold Steel knife, it would probably be a little tougher. But that's not the kind of knife I make, here at CPK we are focused on performance and edge retention is very important to most intelligent users.

There is a difference between durability and toughness. Durability is the ability to tolerate rough use without taking on damage and in this area I will claim to be among the best in the world. Toughness is the measure of the amount of energy the steel can absorb in a fracture impact and it is often diametrically opposed to durability. For example, if the blade were not hardened at all, you could bang it against a pole all day and it would probably never break, it would just mush back and forth like taffy. That is toughness. But you would find it to not be very durable in use.

If a person who is so impressed by a knife like that were to sharpen it at a functional edge angle and then use it to cut open a cardboard box and bump the edge against a staple and the edge were to roll because it's so soft, would they still be impressed with that knife? They might have a better appreciation of the difference between toughness and durability.

I liked this test and I was excited to see it done. I thought it was a good and fair test, and I still feel that way, but apparently I can't please everybody.
 
Red Leader said:
In watching some of the other videos of knives that survived the test, a few come to mind:

1. Creely Folklore Beast
2. Work Tuff Gear Ares
3. Messerfieber Survival Bushcraft Cavusch
4. Mora Pro Robust and Hultafors GK
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I like work tuff gear knives and own several. However, the ares isn't much of a knife, it's more like a combat axe or hatchet. It's thick grinds and obtuse edge angle are what made it survive.

For chopping and smashing things it would be great. It has about the same skill set as a combat axe. Sure, you can use the ares or a winkler combat axe to make feather sticks, process game animals, cut rope, slice tomatoes (kind of), etc. I could also use a pipe wrench to pound in nails, but I wouldn't unless there were no other option.

Edge geometry matters.....a lot.

jlauffer said:
He mentioned the CS AK47 a few times, so I watched that one too. Not sure if I should be impressed that the AK47 performed similarly, or a bit disappointed that the BFK didn't do better than the AK47 🤔 . Either way, they took way more than I would ever dish out.
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I wouldn't be disappointed at all. Any knife can be destroyed.

Did you notice that the ak47 had a massive edge blowout on the metal pole? The BFK didn't, which is insane when you consider it's the same steel at a higher hrc and a thinner edge geometry! The added edge stability is what you're getting with D3V. If you zoom in on the edge of the BFK and the AK47 throughout the testing, the bfk seems to be holding up significantly better.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
It is strange to me the people who measure the excellence of a knife solely by how unbreakable it is. In my opinion, it is a very shallow understanding of what makes a good knife, but there does seem to be a minority of people who look at how unbreakable a knife is as being the only factor at the expense of everything else.
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I couldn't agree more........ :thumbsup:
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
It is strange to me the people who measure the excellence of a knife solely by how unbreakable it is. In my opinion, it is a very shallow understanding of what makes a good knife, but there does seem to be a minority of people who look at how unbreakable a knife is as being the only factor at the expense of everything else.

I look at that test and my take away from it is that if anything it is overbuilt. Had it broken earlier in the test, that would be different. Had it not been subjected to an enormous amount of extremely rough use, that would be different. But the way viewed that test, I felt like that was an extremely good showing of an extreme amount of exceptionally rough use. I would be very curious to know if any knife approaching the cutting ability and edge retention that we have in the BFK has gotten anywhere close to it.

The Delta heat treat process for CPM-3V yields a rockwell hardness of 60.5. I settled on this heat treat because it gave the best edge retention through superior edge stability and it is exceptionally durable, but if I were unconcerned about edge retention and I were to draw it back to 58 like the Cold Steel knife, it would probably be a little tougher. But that's not the kind of knife I make, here at CPK we are focused on performance and edge retention is very important to most intelligent users.

There is a difference between durability and toughness. Durability is the ability to tolerate rough use without taking on damage and in this area I will claim to be among the best in the world. Toughness is the measure of the amount of energy the steel can absorb in a fracture impact and it is often diametrically opposed to durability. For example, if the blade were not hardened at all, you could bang it against a pole all day and it would probably never break, it would just mush back and forth like taffy. That is toughness. But you would find it to not be very durable in use.

If a person who is so impressed by a knife like that were to sharpen it at a functional edge angle and then use it to cut open a cardboard box and bump the edge against a staple and the edge were to roll because it's so soft, would they still be impressed with that knife? They might have a better appreciation of the difference between toughness and durability.

I liked this test and I was excited to see it done. I thought it was a good and fair test, and I still feel that way, but apparently I can't please everybody.
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Hope you don't think I'm in that category after my post. Just thought it was wild that both knives broke so similarly...first the tip, and then again much further down. While I like (and have) many CS knives, the AK47 (fixed or folder) was never one of them...crazy ugly handles that don't look at all comfortable.
 
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You can do it Mike157 Mike157 ! I’d be seeing a groinacologist if I tried that.
 
This Mr. Godbout is also on YouTube making a lot of nasty posts about our work.

That is his actual name. I won't share his full name to protect his privacy.

Jo has illuminated for me a little bit about what may have given Mr. Godbout such a hard-on.

He lives in Canada, which sometimes causes problems in shipping. He ordered some SDFK scales from us a while back and wanted us to ship USPS. We don't usually ship USPS because we have found UPS to me more reliable but we accommodated him. And the order never made it to him. While we did refund his money we refused to ship a replacement USPS, insisting on UPS. This cost him some additional money and, while I don't know for sure, this may be a source of indigestion for him.

We both lost money on the deal, but perhaps he was dissatisfied by our service. <--- this sort of problem is why I don't like shipping out of the country. Hurt feelings. Or, perhaps he sincerely feels our Field Knife should be literally unbreakable. The SDFK, which apparently he had, may have been a better fit from him, Idunno.

Mr. Godbout has said that I have claimed this knife in unbreakable. I've never made that claim. While it is certainly on the hard use side of the spectrum of our tool knives compared to the EDC and the DEK, it isn't one of the more indestructible rough-use knives like the SDFK, HDMC, Shiv etc.

What I have said about it:

"Despite being relatively thin it is durable. You can baton with it. You might damage the fine edge if you set your mind to it, but the knife itself is practically unbreakable." <---- practically. And I will argue that is true.

"It is not overly thick. It is a strong performer, it cuts well. However you can not break this knife without tools such as a big hammer or a prybar. If you can break or significantly damage this knife I will replace, repair or refund. Go nuts." I will argue that repeatably smashing it with heavy concrete blocks falls under "tools" and my claim about its exceptional durability is completely valid. In fact, I think any sane person watching the incredible extended abuse in that video would agree I am understating the exceptional durability of the knife. And, not to detract from the other very durable knives that have been tested, I will wager that the BFK is possibly to only knife with good cutting characteristics and very good edge retention to make it anywhere close. Our rough use warranty states "If this knife ever fails for any reason sort of intentionally breaking it, I will replace, repair or refund. Broken tips get repointed, broken scales are replaced with a material of my choice". I'm going to say this test did not actually set out to intentional break the knife. It's pretty borderline, but I would honor a warranty claim for this despite the fact this is not one of our "rough use knives".

I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of making knives that cannot be broken. Those knives don't cut well and serve almost no real purpose. I'm aiming for extremely durable, and we're there.

If Mr. Godbout has an honest and reality based issue with me or my work, I have no problem with him shitting on me publicly and I would want to engage him. I very much so believe in free-speech. But shitting on someone's excellent work and going on the internet spreading unfounded destructive malice, vandalism, is akin to arson and I have a problem with it.
 
The man is an idiot. I'm perfectly happy with my FK3, can't wait to take it hunting in a couple of weeks. A knife designed to pass Joe X test would most likely be a sharpened pry bar with a soft heat treat. That is useless to me and most people that use their knives for every day cutting tasks.
 
Nathan the Machinist Nathan the Machinist

Nate, if you feel that my response to the individual in question was unjust, I will certainly reverse the steps I have taken out of respect for you and Jo.

My respect for you and Jo, however, (and your knives, of course), is what prompted me to take the action I did...as his comments were out of line by my lights...both factually as well as by the standards of conduct we expect our members to comport themselves by.
 
Blues said:
Nathan the Machinist Nathan the Machinist

Nate, if you feel that my response to the individual in question was unjust, I will certainly reverse the steps I have taken out of respect for you and Jo.

My respect for you and Jo, however, (and your knives, of course), is what prompted me to take the action I did...as his comments were out of line by my lights...both factually as well as by the standards of conduct we expect our members to comport themselves by.
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If someone crosses my threshold to ban them, I will ban them. Lying, attacking other members, and creating drama that detracts from other people's enjoyment of the forum are bannable offenses by me. However, I am hesitant to ban someone for being critical of my work. I don't want to stifle honest criticism here. Is this actually honest criticism, I don't know. This is a gray area. I don't want to resort to insults or name calling, but he honestly seems a little unhinged to me.

As a super moderator of Bladeforums, if someone crosses your threshold to ban them, it is your duty to ban them and I won't question your decision. You've been here a long time and have demonstrated good and fair judgment.

We may have different thresholds, and yours takes precedence. However, if you were to choose to unban him, I would not disagree. It's up to you and your requirements, and the standards that you hold people to.
 
Just want to go on record that Nate and I have been in touch off the forum and that while Nate was amenable to the idea of allowing the member in question to continue having access, the decision to restrict his participation to "read only" in this sub-forum is mine alone. (He is not banned from the forums, only from posting here in this sub-forum. That decision can be revisited down the road.)

I post this not to justify my decision, but simply to allay any potential misunderstanding. Nathan has not asked that the person be prevented from participating here in any way, shape or form, despite the comments that the individual posted.

My decision was predicated upon the standard that I would use for any of the sub-forums here that I have either moderated personally, or overseen in my current capacity.

So, any fault is mine alone.
 
Blues said:
Just want to go on record that Nate and I have been in touch off the forum and that while Nate was amenable to the idea of allowing the member in question to continue having access, the decision to restrict his participation to "read only" in this sub-forum is mine alone. (He is not banned from the forums, only from posting here in this sub-forum. That decision can be revisited down the road.)

I post this not to justify my decision, but simply to allay any potential misunderstanding. Nathan has not asked that the person be prevented from participating here in any way, shape or form, despite the comments that the individual posted.

My decision was predicated upon the standard that I would use for any of the sub-forums here that I have either moderated personally, or overseen in my current capacity.

So, any fault is mine alone.
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I don't see any 'fault'. His first few posts in the thread were so over the top, several of us literally thought it was more warped humor/irony. His continued ranting, though, confirmed that he had no interest in even an attempt at civility.

Even some of the epic Matty-Grenock back and forth, was just good-natured ribbing. This was something else.

Chalk this one up to one of the rare ones, like the guy who didn't read the details in a Sale Pre-order thread (***edited to clarify; that particular individual ignored that it was a Pre-order, and Nate clearly specified that as knives were completed, some of them would also be offered on Friday sales, while the pre-order was still being fulfilled), and wanted a refund, and of course, "I can't believe you'd do me like that" over the depth of the engraving 😅
 
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