Carothers vs Fiddleback

JustinFournier said:
I bought errr 10 FBF customs last year.

I can tell you this. If for no other reason, I wouldn’t suggest FBF as the secondary market is brutal. You lose a ton on a resale. There are strategies to mitigate that however.

This matters to me because there are tons of variations between examples of the same model, and tons of models. Over 100. So they are literally hundreds of possible variation. Just trying to narrow down which model I liked the most was about a $600 loss, across the 6 I’ve sold. I still have a few.

Contrast that to CPK. Andy makes some pretty handles, but you buy a CPK and don’t like it, you get your money back. Plus there are only a handful of models to try.

I wrote a list of 24 models of FBF I wanted to try, $3000 later I still don’t have one I really love, and have lost about $100 a knife trying to figure it out. I gave up for now.

At the end of the day I know the imported A2 isn’t going to perform anywhere near D3V. It’s really for the handles, both materials and ergos.

I wish Nathan did more wood. But I am yet to find a FBF that tops a CPK in ergos.
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Two completely different markets. You shouldn’t buy any knife thinking about resale. Only reason the resale market is better right now on the CPK’s because it’s the hot fad and are produced in limited numbers which keeps demand high on anything. Give it time it’ll calm down. Also there are way more fiddlebacks out there which will bring prices down a bit. Look at Survive knives, that was the hot thing a few years ago, prices have been dropping on the resale market. There’s no one here going to use a knife so hard that A2 is going to “fail”, that’s just super steel hype. I have both and actually prefer A2 as it’s so easy to sharpen.
 
JustinFournier said:
I think a lot of us are here as Nathan likes to do things a specific way, and we like the way he does things. He doesn't even make a pattern he gets bored of past the point he wants to make it. We should let him do what he wants to do how he wants to do it and enjoy the fruits of CPK's collective labor.
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:thumbsup:

(Except that I wish he wasn’t bored of the original FK...)
 
Justin, I have had skimmed through all of Nathan's past sales threads on here ever since he started presenting his knives for sale on the Knife Makers' subform. There were too not many occasions, in fact quite rarely, when his knives tended unsold for days when they were offered for sale. Every new maker must endure a period of time to make a name for himself and since Nathan didn't take the "hawking one's ware" strategy through YouTube influencers and such, he had to wait the time for the product to speak for itself after it filtered through to actual end users to inspect, examine, test, review... Admittedly the sales were not anywhere as brisk and at dizzying speeds like they are nowadays but also remember that they'd be far more bareknuckle fights if Nathan had not warmed up to the practicalities of offering preorders against all his own hesitations and trepidations.
 
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^On that note, given what is available to us today, even a relative newcomer like myself should be able to put a very usable edge on any steel. Even in the field if necessary, though I imagine that 3V will hold up to quite a bit of use before the edge needs any attention.
 
Bmurray said:
Two completely different markets. You shouldn’t buy any knife thinking about resale. Only reason the resale market is better right now on the CPK’s because it’s the hot fad and are produced in limited numbers which keeps demand high on anything. Give it time it’ll calm down. Also there are way more fiddlebacks out there which will bring prices down a bit. Look at Survive knives, that was the hot thing a few years ago, prices have been dropping on the resale market. There’s no one here going to use a knife so hard that A2 is going to “fail”, that’s just super steel hype. I have both and actually prefer A2 as it’s so easy to sharpen.
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I disagree with you 100% on some parts and agree 100% on some others.

But that’s the great part of the experience of the forums isn’t it.

If you buy a knife without considering resale you do yourself a disservice.

If you are paying a price 30% more than other people will, you are overpaying. If you don’t consider future resale you aren’t being smart with your money. That is common in knives though, people sell at a loss to buy new knives all the time. Doesn’t mean it’s the smart thing to do.

There are a ton of knives out there made in limited numbers that do not have high demand. You dismiss the quality aspect.

S!K is dropping on the secondary market because.... thier terrible business practices are destroying their market. That’s on them.

A2 is inferior in every measurable way that I consider performance so it’s not a steel I would pay premium price for. All steels are easy to sharpen when you have a good sharpening system like a wicked edge sharpening system.

This is where I throw out field sharpening. Why use a crappy system to sharpen in the field? Cause the knife requires it? Get a steel that retains an edge and you can reserve sharpening for home. More time to enjoy while in the field and better results in the shop.

Finally, Andy is putting out more knives than there is demand for, that’s why prices are coming down that’s all. Market saturation is real. Nathan hasn’t reached that point. Maybe he will, that is his goal.

I’m not bashing Andy here, I have several FBF customs I like. I’m just point out reality.
 
JustinFournier said:
A2 is inferior in every measurable way that I consider performance so it’s not a steel I would pay premium price for. All steels are easy to sharpen when you have a good sharpening system like a wicked edge sharpening system.

This is where I throw out field sharpening. Why use a crappy system to sharpen in the field? Cause the knife requires it? Get a steel that retains an edge and you can reserve sharpening for home. More time to enjoy while in the field and better results in the shop.
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I disagree here because at the end of the day whether you are using a jig like WE or EP or a ceramic hone or a puck or a strop or a coffee cup or a keychain stone you are rubbing one object on another. You can get a fine edge either way as the same principles apply. The jig eases movement towards discrete, consistent, and measurable results. So I would not call field sharpening tools a crappy system... a steady hand and a rock are analogous to a fixed jig and a waterstone.

I would also say that, for example, sharpening D3V, AEB-L, and O1 are ever more pleasant than sharpening A2, CPM 154, and CTS-204P. HRC held constant. SR101 is nice as well. Even on a fixed system, IMHO.

Also with WE, over time, you are going to have a wedge effect on the grind of the blade because you only sharpen the primary edge. In this respect a stone or a belt will be superior allowing you to reduce the thickness of the grind of the blade leading up to the edge. The more you use a knife and fail to reduce the thickness of the grind, favoring only the cutting edge, the more abrupt will be the transition from that cutting edge to an ever thickening blade face.
 
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Well the difference between you and I, is that I buy knives to use them, not as an investment. Why is that a disservice? If I don’t like it I sell it, simple. If you want to invest buy Loveless, Spake, even Randall’s. These will hold value long after we’re gone. Go to BLADE this year and see some of them.

For me having 30 years in metallurgy an machining of high end steels there’s still no real reason for me to take one over the other for a knife, just a preference. As my personal steel of choice is AEB-L. It’s basically a stainless 52100 which is the cats meow of all around steels. No rust, fine grain for a wicked edge and holds it longer than I’ll be using it. I’m not bashing anyone as I love knives, just always get amused like a lot of the makers that read the forum hype on steels. I’ve dis used that with some and we just laugh.
 
Bmurray said:
Two completely different markets. You shouldn’t buy any knife thinking about resale. Only reason the resale market is better right now on the CPK’s because it’s the hot fad and are produced in limited numbers which keeps demand high on anything. Give it time it’ll calm down. Also there are way more fiddlebacks out there which will bring prices down a bit. Look at Survive knives, that was the hot thing a few years ago, prices have been dropping on the resale market. There’s no one here going to use a knife so hard that A2 is going to “fail”, that’s just super steel hype. I have both and actually prefer A2 as it’s so easy to sharpen.
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counterpoint- I have made good money buying knives under their value and reselling them at a profit. Not a lot of money, but enough so that I can buy knives I'd otherwise not be able to afford that I want to keep. I can't think of any case in my experience where I bought a knife, much less anything else, where I didn't consider how well it would hold its value- from either a utility or financial perspectives. I'm, uh, 'thrifty', let's say. A lot of people seem to fall victim to what Justin mentioned in his post- paying a premium to have what is popular. While the short term infusion of cash into the aftermarket isn't a bad thing, as it keeps dealers and some individuals in money, the long term effect might be folks leaving the 'hobby' because they lost a bunch of money and feel burned. That being said, people buy what they like and I guess they should, but it does take a fairly long time to gain the education required to not lose your shirt on these steely objects, so it pays to pay attention. Literally
 
I have never seen a FBF or CPK knive with any sort of damage worth talking about come through for sharpening.

In my experience, D3V will chip prior to rolling, and Fiddleback's A2 behaves much the same but chips and rolls. Fiddleback O1 is prone to rolling and not chipping. Therefore, O1 is superior to D3V as well as A2 for hard use applications. D3V wins for edge holding against the 3 and is very springy and unlikely to fail even though a thin cross section of edge will be at risk if you beat it on rocks and stuff...

I actually hammered some 5160 against D3V and it worked out alright for both. My hand got tired. At some level of performance, and I would include 5160, D3V, and O1 in this category, you will fail before the knife does. But I still feel O1 will roll and not chip all else held equal against D3V. I would also agree that A2 is probably going to stack up slightly short in both categories (but is still respectable).

O1 rolls just sitting there though and does require consistent maintenance. There are many factors influencing the performance of any given steel so YMMV.
 
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I also appreciate Nathan and Jo's vision for CPK: "Our brand is based on value, and bang for the buck high performance cutting tools."

As to the OP... I'm not really big on "Brand or Maker" vs. "Brand or Maker" shootouts... Chevy/GMC vs. Ford vs. Dodge Ram pickups etc. I like and own multiple CPK and I also like and own multiple FF. I expect that I'll also continue to support both makers as well as continue to seek out other "new to me" brand/makers in the future. Heck all it takes is a visit to the "Blade Show" in June and walk the aisles to see that there is a whole lot of knife choices out there available to us.

One other thing that I really like about CPK is that they are machined! I love the extremely precise machined aspect of Nathan's knives as compared to other production methods including both handmade and forged.
It is different and I like it. There may be some other makers out there doing this method but I don't know of any others off hand?

There have been some good points/comments being made in the thread about resale... I'll have to give the whole "collecting aspect" of knives some further consideration. Maybe I'm more of an "accumulator" as I still have most every knife that I've ever purchased. I've only traded/sold/gifted away a small number of my knives.
 
Panthera tigris said:
I disagree here because at the end of the day whether you are using a jig like WE or EP or a ceramic hone or a puck or a strop or a coffee cup or a keychain stone you are rubbing one object on another. You can get a fine edge either way as the same principles apply. The jig eases movement towards discrete, consistent, and measurable results. So I would not call field sharpening tools a crappy system... a steady hand and a rock are analogous to a fixed jig and a waterstone.

I would also say that, for example, sharpening D3V, AEB-L, and O1 are ever more pleasant than sharpening A2, CPM 154, and CTS-204P. HRC held constant.
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I’d agree they are analogous as far as they are both an attempt at improving the edge of the knife. Not sure I’d go much further than that.

I think hand honing on waterstones by someone very competent can produce fantastic results, but they aren’t using field expedient systems. I’ve never seen a hair popping edge from a sharpening job done by hand in the field.

I’ve tried various field sharpening systems back when I used fixed blades in S35VN as field sharpening was important to me at that point. Cause the knives I was using sucked.

But then I got into chasing better steels and better sharpening systems and next thing you know, here I am.

I find most people consider the amount of strokes it takes to get the edge where they want it as the main consideration when they say a steel is hard to sharpen. Well if you are doing it by hand and a consistent angle is hard to achieve then the more strokes the more inconsistent the outcome, the more fatigue you get, the worse the final result. That’s reasonable.

These days my fixed blades are primarily D3V, with a sprinkling of 3V, D2 and 4V, and my primary use folders are M390, S90V and Vanax 37.

I use a wicked edge and don’t find any of these steels are hard to sharpen. Some take more strokes than others but the amount of time in the system is way more dependant on how much polish I want on the edge. A working edge is easy to get. Thats part of why the system is amazing.

A little pocket sized stone, a puck or anything else isn’t going to produce comparable results to a wicked edge. Maybe crappy isn’t the right term. But it isn’t up to my standards either.
 
Panthera tigris said:
I have never seen a FBF or CPK knive with any sort of damage worth talking about come through for sharpening.

In my experience, D3V will chip prior to rolling, and Fiddleback's A2 behaves much the same but chips and rolls. Fiddleback O1 is prone to rolling and not chipping. Therefore, O1 is superior to D3V as well as A2 for hard use applications. D3V wins for edge holding against the 3 and is very springy and unlikely to fail even though a thin cross section of edge will be at risk if you beat it on rocks and stuff...

I actually hammered some 5160 against D3V and it worked out alright for both. My hand got tired. At some level of performance, and I would include 5160, D3V, and O1 in this category, you will fail before the knife does. But I still feel O1 will roll and not chip all else held equal against D3V. I would also agree that A2 is probably going to stack up slightly short in both categories (but is still respectable).

O1 rolls just sitting there though and does require consistent maintenance. There are many factors influencing the performance of any given steel so YMMV.
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For me, mostly due to geographic location corrosion resistance is really important.

Also, I’ve only held one knife in D3V with serious damage and it was a RLC hammered through a nail.

Like anything else, application is critical so I agree in some situations a softer steel prone to plastic deformtion might be preferable, but none of those applications are something I would personally do.

I’m a big “right tool for the job” kinda guy. I’ll never intentionally use any of my knives on steel, concrete or rocks. Honesty I don’t consider that hard use, I consider it abuse.

Of course this is just my opinion! YMMV.
 
Bmurray said:
Well the difference between you and I, is that I buy knives to use them, not as an investment. Why is that a disservice? If I don’t like it I sell it, simple. If you want to invest buy Loveless, Spake, even Randall’s. These will hold value long after we’re gone. Go to BLADE this year and see some of them.

For me having 30 years in metallurgy an machining of high end steels there’s still no real reason for me to take one over the other for a knife, just a preference. As my personal steel of choice is AEB-L. It’s basically a stainless 52100 which is the cats meow of all around steels. No rust, fine grain for a wicked edge and holds it longer than I’ll be using it. I’m not bashing anyone as I love knives, just always get amused like a lot of the makers that read the forum hype on steels. I’ve dis used that with some and we just laugh.
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If you buy a knife with no consideration for it’s future value, then sell at a loss and do that consistently then it becomes a drain on your finances. How is that good in any way?

I buy knives to use, with the occasional one I can’t bring myself to, but I’m also realistic and find that most knives I buy will inevitably get sold because I don’t like something about them. Or something else I have does that job better. When that time comes, I hate taking a bath on it. It’s really, really distasteful. Some day I want to retire. Overpaying for knives doesn’t help me get there.

I work for a living and money means time as I need to trade my time and labour for that money. Time away from my family and things I would rather do than work.

You probably have a price you would pay as a maximum on a knife and you probably have found at some point money is a limiting factor. If not then I guess this doesn’t apply to you and I apologize.

AEB-L is a great steel. It was developed for razors and holds a very fine edge. Sure it’s a little fragile but it’s my favourite steel for the kitchen. I don’t have hard use kitchen knives with acute edges in AEB-L. I wouldn’t buy a cleaver made of one. All my AEB-L has a dihedral angle under 30 degrees. It’s my favourite for that application, but I wouldn’t buy a 1/4” chopper made from one.

In short, I’m not saying knives are an investment, I don’t treat them as such, but I don’t think they need to be giant black holes of disappearing money either.
 
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I stumbled into this "hobby" quite by accident and then became very keen because of my extremely inquisitive nature when I become very, very interested in the subject. Before I became aware and interested in "super steels" I had bought then sold off / gifted quite a few 1095 and VG10 blades. I could've easily kept a couple / few of them about 2 years ago when I started peeking into this Site. In other words, I could've easily been that typically casual knife user with a couple of folders in S30V, a couple of SAKs and few fixed blades made by ESEE / Fallkniven. After all and at the end, had we not had all these great First-World "problems", I'm sure that I could've very easily lived with those "average" steels for my purposes.

All of a sudden, my curiosity turned into a passion bordering an obsession, but I'm the type of person who has enough self restraint to not allow my passion and borderline obsessions turn into a vice ala an incurable addiction. After cycling through quite a few makers and models, I settled on my I deem as quality folders made by Spyderco and as far as fixed blades go, I'm only into Carothers Performance Knives. While my personal choices are not in any way, shape or form meant as dismissal or denigration of other brands / models, what I have decided upon makes me content and very happy. Resale is not as high a factor on my list as affordability without the feeling of remorse / guilt, but I'd be dishonest if I say that a robust resale is also a none factor!

In closing, I have remained a paying member on this Site because of the CPK subform because I have come to enjoy, cherish and value the friendships and the comraderies which I have forged and fostered on here. I have never regretted buying a CPK even if / when I paid the secondary market prices as much as I have regretted letting go of a CPK even if it fetched a handsome secondary market price. I know that Nathan's true ethos are as stated, "Our brand is based on value, and bang for the buck high performance cutting tools." which I both respect and honor, but above all that personally speaking is the intrinsic value which I put on the integrity of the kind of people whom I wish to engage to do business with, both in terms of the principals and also the brethren.
 
JustinFournier said:
In short, I’m not saying knives are an investment, I don’t treat them as such, but I don’t think they need to be giant black holes of disappearing money either.
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I have had very good luck reselling Fiddlebacks, but I also look for prime woods or exceptional examples of blades, as well as ones with some sentimental value for collectors based on age, rarity, or circumstance. They aren't as easy to flip as Carothers, but I would argue that the gross resale value nested within the Fiddleback market currently exceeds the CPK market from a business perspective. Rephrased - I am confident I can keep buying and reselling interesting Fiddlebacks at a profit. I do agree with Bob here though, I am buying a knife to compensate a maker for their time and hard work. Both makers are selling at fair prices and so if I like a knife from either I feel good about the purchase. Both are also making best in class for kicking butt on the trail.

Also pretty sure Bob is buying knives to funnel cash to good craftsman and to support businesses and products he loves. The differences between the two brands in my perspective, in terms of performance and virtually any other factor, are within a standard deviation one way or the other. Just don't get me started on 420J.
 
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In the end, really does not matter what steel one prefers, (If you prefer A2-I do not or O-1) you simply purchase this steel from a manufacturer who offers it! CPK cannot produce enough knives to satisfy its Customer Demands! I would also doubt their Business (CPK) is a Fad! (an intense and widely shared enthusiasm for something, especially one that is short-lived and without basis in the object's qualities; a craze). In Fact in 2 years I bet (CPK) knives will be in more demand!!! GOOD PROBLEM TO HAVE!!
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