I did mention the Mark II, which dates from 1966 and was used in Vietnam and is used by some in Iraq/Afganistan. The Mark I is actually from 1976. What duty did the Mark I see?
Here's some Richtig knives:
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Cast-in-place aluminum knife handles
- Thread starter RX-79G
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Here's some Richtig knives:
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If you're going to go to the trouble of making a metal-handled knife, why screw around with molding and casting and all that and just make a one-piece knife? Same basic principal, less potential points of failure.
The problem with aluminum is that yes, it's strong, and a big bar of it is going to be practically indestructible. But that all changes the second you melt it down and cast it. Unless your process is 100% controlled and perfect, it's far too easy to put in imperfections and other issues and end up with aluminum that's brittle and a knife that's worthless. My main concern would be cracking between the tang and the handle, a strong and flexible material like 1095 meeting a now rigid and brittle material like cast aluminum and BAM, you have a handle crumbling in your hand under load. Particularly in cold use situations.
The problem with aluminum is that yes, it's strong, and a big bar of it is going to be practically indestructible. But that all changes the second you melt it down and cast it. Unless your process is 100% controlled and perfect, it's far too easy to put in imperfections and other issues and end up with aluminum that's brittle and a knife that's worthless. My main concern would be cracking between the tang and the handle, a strong and flexible material like 1095 meeting a now rigid and brittle material like cast aluminum and BAM, you have a handle crumbling in your hand under load. Particularly in cold use situations.
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I'm curious to see those. If you are so kind to show them.
Aluminum casting isn't new, and there are quite a few alloys that are specifically made for casting. I'm not sure where your concerns about brittleness in casting come from. You could cast handles out of zinc or pewter and the handle would still be strong - aluminum is just very, very strong.
Also, aluminum doesn't get brittle with cold - it actually gets stronger at lower temperatures.
http://www.aluminiumdesign.net/why-aluminium/properties-of-aluminium/
Why do it? Because aluminum is 1/3 the density of steel. A 1095 knife with a tapered tang cast in aluminum is going to be about the same weight and balance as a full tang knife with micarta scales, but be stronger and more proof against corrosion.
Not to pick on you, but I think your post is illustrative of the main problem - people have all sorts of misconceptions about materials and techniques they aren't familiar with, and will act on them rather want to find out more, first. That's part of the reason I brought this up - to see what sort of wives tales would emerge.
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Seems like you already know all the wives tales and have answers for them.
Why not put your "theory" to the test. Make a knife and do a pass around. Shouldn't be too hard, right?
Actually, I didn't know that people thought aluminum gets brittle when cold, or that they expect it to spontaneously shear, and expect Ti to do the same.
I don't have much of a theory - cast handled knives are old and seem to work very well in multiple war zones. I don't currently have a casting furnace, but when I get one I'll be happy to build a bunch of knives to destroy, then buy all the stuff to destroy them in a scientific manner. All for you, man.
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Oh, don't do it for me. Like I said, I would never really consider a metal handle fixed blade. There are many other better options for serious use. Plus, there are others here with more knowledge than me who would happily like to see you beat on your metal knives. To each their own.
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And obviously he learned them all on You Tube... a "gun handle paint", just shoot me.
I like to see the knives he claims he makes, before I see a nonsense with aluminum handle made at home.
Thanks for making this topic about anything but knives.
And it is an excellent one! I've been wondering myself how much of a factor it is.
Molten aluminum is going to be close to 1000F. With steel molds (watch the Rada factory video), there probably isn't much of a problem because the majority of heat is going to go into the mold and the aluminum will cool rapidly. But if you are using a lost wax process with sand or plaster type investment, those are less likely to absorb the heat.
Clamping the exposed blade to blocks of aluminum might serve to keep the edge temp below 400F, kind of like how plate quenching works, or the Rada molds. Or one could choose a steel that tempers at higher temps.
In terms of the blade tang and the immediate ricasso area - you've just tempered them down to a very robust 50-56 Rc. So no loss there.
Since there is a range of casting temps with the different alloys, choosing a lower temp combined with other practices is likely the best bet. But for a non-industrial shop, it is going to take some trial and error to figure out just how much heat is migrating through to the edge.
t1mpani
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I've used Ruana and aluminum-handled Gerber (pre-Fiskars) knives in the outdoors for years. Aluminum is indeed a good bit "warmer" to the touch than steel in a cold environment, though not nearly so warm as wood, micarta, etc. It also gets a good deal hotter than those materials (not steel) in very hot conditions. All of that said, not one of those knives has ever been so hot, or so cold, that I was prohibited from using it, or even minded doing so. Keep in mind that there are some profound wimps in this world. But then again, there's plenty of tough guys who just like other materials better.
Make excellent cast-handled knives, and you'll find a market. Make excellent ANYTHING and you'll find a market. That will silence most of the naysayers, whereas arguing with them never will. Good luck!
By the way, the old Gerbers were M2 steel in the low 60s; a rather perfect alloy for such a heat-intensive handling process. You could go M4 just to 21st-Centurize it.
Make excellent cast-handled knives, and you'll find a market. Make excellent ANYTHING and you'll find a market. That will silence most of the naysayers, whereas arguing with them never will. Good luck!
By the way, the old Gerbers were M2 steel in the low 60s; a rather perfect alloy for such a heat-intensive handling process. You could go M4 just to 21st-Centurize it.
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Um, no problem I guess. Although if you look again you will notice all my posts have been on your topic, answering your questions, responding to your statements, and all about knives.
If you say so. You started with your usual parroting of someone else's opinion:
And then followed up with this cutlery oriented gem:
Seems like insults and noise, rather than thoughtful input.
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I'm parroting yours and few others opinions on this thread's subject, because they match my personal experience with such knifes and user. Looks like he's taking offence of his own words:
I didn't know sharing different than yours opinion is called "wives tales", I learned something new today, very informative thread,
especially after I found out why it was started... The supremacy of the mind that learned stuff from videos in Internet... :thumbup:
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I've read every post thus far and I'm still shaking my head at the OP's posts. From what I've gathered, if you disagree with the OP, you are wrong.
Aluminum handled knives are niche with today's technological advances in design and material construction. Handle construction should not play a role in the structural integrity of the knife, unless it was designed to be that way. IMO, designing a knife's handles to be a structural component is a weak attempt at cutting corners.
Aluminum handled knives are niche with today's technological advances in design and material construction. Handle construction should not play a role in the structural integrity of the knife, unless it was designed to be that way. IMO, designing a knife's handles to be a structural component is a weak attempt at cutting corners.
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So calling other people's opinions wives tails is not an insult? Saying someone is just doing his usual parroting is not an insult? Unjustly accusing someone of not posting on topic is not an insult? Well you sir are perfect then :thumbup:
BTW, I don't always agree with Insipid Moniker, but when I do, I don't mind...how did you describe it...oh, parroting him
Looks like he's taking offence of his own words:I didn't know sharing different than yours opinion is called "wives tales", I learned something new today, very informative thread,
especially after I found out why it was started... The supremacy of the mind that learned stuff from videos in Internet... :thumbup:
What a novel concept.
Yup. And once you disagree with the OP he reduces his argument to you being off topic or insulting or just noise. I mean, why even start a thread if you already know what you want to hear and are just going to argue with everyone who posts?
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He already answered this question, it is clear why.
As I said - my opinion on the subject aluminum (metal) handle vs other, is very much as yours and the expressed from few other guys here, I find metal handles slippery out in the elements, regardless of the texture they have.
Precisely for this reason I don't have fixed blade with aluminum handle but i had few Benchmade models with aluminum handles and they are not what I like or look in a knife.
For a fixed blade I'd probably prefer to have full tang with removable Micarta scales, I find it to withstand better temperature differences and direct hits, than G-10. Also, when they are damaged, they can be smoothed easily and will feel more comfortable than aluminum handle for instance.
I love the look of wood in a knife handle but IMHO it's not the strongest one when we're talking about hits or wet environment. I have a fixed blade with pommel made of aluminum like material (Lost Cosmonaut mentioned one of those materials, I can never remember all of the different types, I just call it with the very scientific term "Matchbox cars metal"...) that eroded badly with the time, same goes for few other fixed blades with aluminum elements that I've seen, not a general rule, but I've seen some with serious steel to aluminum erosion, which technically is a normal reaction in this case because of the sweat and such electrolyte-like liquids that covers those two.
From user's point of view, I don't see advantages with cast aluminum handles, from manufacturers point - maybe, I don't know. Is it more or less expensive to come up with successful combination of right aluminum type, applied to a good design ? I don't know. I don't know if there are any special purpose knives with such design. I would assume it is a process for mass, low quality production, available for manufacturer with such capabilities and enough R&D behind the belt to be able to produce decent design. One thing I do know is that if the end user finds such designs practical today, we would know about more models and not for a few curios. The way the OP positioning his so called question, looks to me like most people are idiots for not using such knives... Again: he said that he was making knives. I like to see at least one of those, not to comment on it, just to see it. I don't pretend to know a lot about knives but I have some done by knifemakers, according to what I'm looking in a certain blade, and would probably determine for myself if he really knows what his talking about or just like to argue about what he saw on the Tube and like to elaborate on it.
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I'll also elaborate further so I am not further accused of "parroting". I too have experience with Benchmade. Both the g10 and aluminum handle versions of the Nimravus. Had the Aluminum handle first, sold it because it was thick, cold, and seemed hard. I also knew it would show wear with relatively lite use, though this is purely aesthetic. The G10 version had more traction, was warmer, and for sure could handle more wear.
So again, metal handle fixed blade knives just seem uncomfortable to use, both in theory and in my experience. There is a reason why most respected manufacturers and makes don't make metal handle knives (CRK being one exception but I would never buy one of those for the stated reasons). Give me Micarta, G10, FRN (and the like), or Kraton any day 100% of the time over metal in a fixed blade. Oh, and a full tang.