Cast-in-place aluminum knife handles

[Czechmate]

Aluminum handled knives are niche with today's technological advances in design and material construction. Handle construction should not play a role in the structural integrity of the knife, unless it was designed to be that way. IMO, designing a knife's handles to be a structural component is a weak attempt at cutting corners.

Definitely agree with that.

I think my mother still has a bunch of those Rada kitchen knives in the kitchen; they've endured over 32 years of use and neglect... :thumbup:

Sort of on topic; I just got this custom axe (bottom one) yesterday it has a T6061 aluminum handle with 1/2 thick A2 tool steel bit held on with grade 8 bolts. The maker claimed having using it pretty roughly and it held up fine. It was then refurbished for sale as a user so I got a great deal. I'm looking forward to seeing how it holds up to use. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[craytab]

Definitely agree with that.

I think my mother still has a bunch of those Rada kitchen knives in the kitchen; they've endured over 32 years of use and neglect... :thumbup:

Sort of on topic; I just got this custom axe (bottom one) yesterday it has a T6061 aluminum handle with 1/2 thick A2 tool steel bit held on with grade 8 bolts. The maker claimed having using it pretty roughly and it held up fine. It was then refurbished for sale as a user so I got a great deal. I'm looking forward to seeing how it holds up to use. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

For a kitchen knife I am sure the OPs idea would work fine as your Mother has experienced

Nice looking Axe. Bolted on is a great idea. The OP is talking about casting in place which enters in a whole bunch of variables. How was the handle of your Axe made? I would assume not cast.

 

[Czechmate]

For a kitchen knife I am sure the OPs idea would work fine as your Mother has experienced

Nice looking Axe. Bolted on is a great idea. The OP is talking about casting in place which enters in a whole bunch of variables. How was the handle of your Axe made? I would assume not cast.

:thumbup: LOL @ the bolded part.

Thanks btw, and that's why I said sort of on topic as my disclaimer. :thumbup:

I believe it was bar stock that was surface ground/drilled to shape but will confirm with the maker for reference.

The aluminum definitely makes for a lightweight axe as it is 25 ounces in weight and the CRKT Kangee above is 24 and change... :thumbup: As long as it doesn't sacrifice too much strength.

 

[B34NS]

Why cast when you could use billet or machined aluminum?

 

[EricV]

I've had too many aluminium shift knobs to ever want that one a knife. Leave it out on a log in the summer sun for an hour and you'll be swearing up a storm and dropping a sharp object pretty quickly. That includes powder coated and painted ones, never again.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

...I too have experience with Benchmade. Both the g10 and aluminum handle versions of the Nimravus. Had the Aluminum handle first, sold it because it was thick, cold, and seemed hard. I also knew it would show wear with relatively lite use, though this is purely aesthetic. The G10 version had more traction, was warmer, and for sure could handle more wear.

So again, metal handle fixed blade knives just seem uncomfortable to use, both in theory and in my experience. There is a reason why most respected manufacturers and makes don't make metal handle knives (CRK being one exception but I would never buy one of those for the stated reasons). Give me Micarta, G10, FRN (and the like), or Kraton any day 100% of the time over metal in a fixed blade. Oh, and a full tang.

Pretty much same here, my BM experience was with few autos,
last that I handled was a Mini Striker that I fixed for a friend of mine, sorry for the small picture:

It didn't look good, the few nicks and scratches had relatively sharp edges and wasn't comfortable to handle,
not to mentioned that it was dragging in the pocket.

In other occasion I would be interested what's OP's experience with aluminum handles... In this case I know the answer...

 

[craytab]

And in the above quote I believe I meant *slick but they could be thick as well I guess.

 

[DAVE_M]

Why cast when you could use billet or machined aluminum?

As the OP has shown, casting is the only method to encapsulate the tang with aluminum alone. You could have a full tang knife and epoxy, pin, or bolt on machined aluminum handles, but that defeats the point that the OP is trying to make.

 

[Czechmate]

I couldn't resist as I'm a Busse/Scrapyard fan and the Res-C handles rule!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Worlds better than Kraton, aluminum or any other stuff I've tried...

 

[B34NS]

As the OP has shown, casting is the only method to encapsulate the tang with aluminum alone. You could have a full tang knife and epoxy, pin, or bolt on machined aluminum handles, but that defeats the point that the OP is trying to make.

Was my first thought as well, although wouldn't casting temperatures also have a negative effect structurally on heat treat on the tang?

Doesn't sound like the juice is worth the squuze.

 

[RX-79G]

I've read every post thus far and I'm still shaking my head at the OP's posts. From what I've gathered, if you disagree with the OP, you are wrong.

Aluminum handled knives are niche with today's technological advances in design and material construction. Handle construction should not play a role in the structural integrity of the knife, unless it was designed to be that way. IMO, designing a knife's handles to be a structural component is a weak attempt at cutting corners.

Hi Dave,

I'm sorry you found my posts insulting. I certainly have opinions of my own, as does everyone. There are also some items discussed in this thread that are simply facts, or are factually incorrect. I would hope a distinction between discussing facts and opinions could be made.

May I ask why you feel designing a knife as a whole is cheating? A stub tanged blade mounted in a hollow tube handle for a survival knife is entirely useless without its handle, and the design of most every stick tang knife also relies the handle fit and/or tension to keep the tang intact. You can certainly make an unbreakable full tang knife by using thick stock and few holes in the tang, but then you run into a weight and balance issue because steel is about the heaviest material used in knives.



In terms of pre-made aluminum handles, these certainly could work nearly as well as one cast in place, because they will have all the rigidity to prevent the leafspring effect I mentioned earlier. The main drawback is that they have to be made to accept a specific tang shape ahead of time - which means that you might be limited on the depth and/or close fit that the tang can have in its hole. You would also be more limited on wall thickness, I would think, than a blade/handle that could be treated during grinding as a continuous piece of metal.


POCEH KOCEB, I can see your posts when people quote you, but not otherwise. I set you on "ignore" after our last encounter. So please don't expect me to address your comments.

 

[RX-79G]

I couldn't resist as I'm a Busse/Scrapyard fan and the Res-C handles rule!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Worlds better than Kraton, aluminum or any other stuff I've tried...

Those pics illustrate a point I've been making - the weekest point on those blade is the narrow part of the tang located 1" behind the ricasso. Soft plastic/rubber handles don't support that area, allowing it to flex. Busse's use very thick stock, so it isn't really an issue. But if you want a 1/8" stock knife blade, the weakness becomes more of a factor.

It was an issue for this similarly made Cold Steel Kukri, though. That tang didn't fail in front of the handle, but well inside it:

Was my first thought as well, although wouldn't casting temperatures also have a negative effect structurally on heat treat on the tang?

Bo T also brought that up and I responded. It certainly is a factor in designing the casting set up. But with so many well thought of knives already made this way, it probably is something that can be controlled okay.

 

[B34NS]

Bo T also brought that up and I responded. It certainly is a factor in designing the casting set up. But with so many well thought of knives already made this way, it probably is something that can be controlled okay.

Ah I missed that, sorry bout that!

I think it could be great for dive/fishing as well as culinary and looking nice. Sounds like a fun idea. I know while not aluminum, there were a lot of sliver workers out here that did some pretty epic silverware in the way you describe. And would be a lot lighter too! Hopefully you'll keep us posted :thumbup:

 

[DAVE_M]

Hi Dave,

I'm sorry you found my posts insulting. I certainly have opinions of my own, as does everyone. There are also some items discussed in this thread that are simply facts, or are factually incorrect. I would hope a distinction between discussing facts and opinions could be made.

May I ask why you feel designing a knife as a whole is cheating? A stub tanged blade mounted in a hollow tube handle for a survival knife is entirely useless without its handle, and the design of most every stick tang knife also relies the handle fit and/or tension to keep the tang intact. You can certainly make an unbreakable full tang knife by using thick stock and few holes in the tang, but then you run into a weight and balance issue because steel is about the heaviest material used in knives.



In terms of pre-made aluminum handles, these certainly could work nearly as well as one cast in place, because they will have all the rigidity to prevent the leafspring effect I mentioned earlier. The main drawback is that they have to be made to accept a specific tang shape ahead of time - which means that you might be limited on the depth and/or close fit that the tang can have in its hole. You would also be more limited on wall thickness, I would think, than a blade/handle that could be treated during grinding as a continuous piece of metal.

I would advise you to reread my post. Particularly where I typed "Handle construction should not play a role in the structural integrity of the knife, unless it was designed to be that way." This would include hollow handled knives, as they were designed to be that way and totally off topic.

I suggest you brush up on knife design, physics, and stress analysis, before making assumptions. You are attempting to tell members of a large knife forum, that your ideas are superior. That's not going to end well.

 

[RX-79G]

Hmmm. I think I'm suggesting to the members of a large knife forum that one set of pre-existing ideas may have advantages over another set of pre-existing ideas. I am also suggesting that full tang construction isn't automatically the strongest construction, even though it is often spoken of in that way.

I would advise you to reread my post. Particularly where I typed "Handle construction should not play a role in the structural integrity of the knife, unless it was designed to be that way." This would include hollow handled knives, as they were designed to be that way and totally off topic.

I suggest you brush up on knife design, physics, and stress analysis, before making assumptions. You are attempting to tell members of a large knife forum, that your ideas are superior. That's not going to end well.

But you also said:

IMO, designing a knife's handles to be a structural component is a weak attempt at cutting corners.

Which seems to suggest that you only think there is only one way to make a tang, which is using a lot of heavy steel.

My interest is presenting tang failures of the type that I have posted pictures of and one possible solution (as well as a cool construction technique). Your post suggests that I'm inventing a problem that doesn't exist, rather than commenting on a small problem that does exist and has been illustrated and explained. If you would like to disagree on the "physics" I have posted because you disagree with how full tang failures occur, that might be a more constructive post than making a vague threat about whether this will "end well".


Specific to your posts, I agree that handle construction should not play a role in structural integrity if it is not designed to. But I don't think Spyderco designed those early Bushcrafters to have tang failures. They drilled all those holes to moderate weight, not increase weakness. I'm saying there are ways to build a knife that decreases weight without having to choose to compromise strength.

So what are you saying? Or do you just want me to shut up?

 

[rustyrazor]

any poorly thought out design that induces stress risers or weak points will be a weaker design than one that has been done right... I'm curious as to what other type of handle configuration is stronger than full tang assuing it's done properly.

 

[RX-79G]

any poorly thought out design that induces stress risers or weak points will be a weaker design than one that has been done right... I'm curious as to what other type of handle configuration is stronger than full tang assuing it's done properly.

One that encases the tang in a material that is rigid and strong enough to prevent bending forces from getting to the tang.


As I posted earlier, I have been unable to find an example of an aluminum handled knife where the blade broke down inside the handle. As full tang blades can and do break inside past the end of the handle, because of the need for pins, they are arguably less strong.


Generally, you can join the right and left sides of a handle by going around the tang, or through the middle of it. I'm suggesting going around is structurally more sound.

 

[DAVE_M]

Hmmm. I think I'm suggesting to the members of a large knife forum that one set of pre-existing ideas may have advantages over another set of pre-existing ideas. I am also suggesting that full tang construction isn't automatically the strongest construction, even though it is often spoken of in that way.
But you also said:



Which seems to suggest that you only think there is only one way to make a tang, which is using a lot of heavy steel.

My interest is presenting tang failures of the type that I have posted pictures of and one possible solution (as well as a cool construction technique). Your post suggests that I'm inventing a problem that doesn't exist, rather than commenting on a small problem that does exist and has been illustrated and explained. If you would like to disagree on the "physics" I have posted because you disagree with how full tang failures occur, that might be a more constructive post than making a vague threat about whether this will "end well".


Specific to your posts, I agree that handle construction should not play a role in structural integrity if it is not designed to. But I don't think Spyderco designed those early Bushcrafters to have tang failures. They drilled all those holes to moderate weight, not increase weakness. I'm saying there are ways to build a knife that decreases weight without having to choose to compromise strength.

So what are you saying? Or do you just want me to shut up?

You are twisting my words to better suit your argument

Don't confuse a structural handle with a poor knife design. There are many full tang knives that are bad designs.

 

[RX-79G]

You are twisting my words to better suit your argument

Don't confuse a structural handle with a poor knife design. There are many full tang knives that are bad designs.

I'm not trying to twist anything. You have stated that using a structural handle to increase tang strength is poor design.

Fine.


What is good full tang design, keeping in mind the need for pin holes and the ability to moderate tang weight and blade thickness?

 

[chiral.grolim]

One that encases the tang in a material that is rigid and strong enough to prevent bending forces from getting to the tang.

As I posted earlier, I have been unable to find an example of an aluminum handled knife where the blade broke down inside the handle. As full tang blades can and do break inside past the end of the handle, because of the need for pins, they are arguably less strong.

Generally, you can join the right and left sides of a handle by going around the tang, or through the middle of it. I'm suggesting going around is structurally more sound.

I've always wanted a Gerber ArmorHide A475 (not my pic)

But I also rarely see a Mora with broken tang despite the plastic handles. (again not my pic)

Indeed, one must wonder what great efforts it took to break the CS kukri-machete presented. I rarely see broken hidden-tang Bucks or even Kabars despite their enormous prevalence (the odd Kabar here or there vs. the millions about), broken SRKs or Randalls, etc. much less broken Bussekin. What i present to you is that whatever force is required to bend/break that steel tang is MORE than enough to bend/break the aluminum handle trying to support it unless that section of handle is ~2X thicker than the piece of steel being bent. If the fracture in the tang is due to impact-shock at an inclusion in the steel, again the aluminum doesn't help. While i have no doubt that the cast-in-place design will sell (those Gerbers sure did) I am not convinced it will lend any noticeable superiority in handle strength over a more comfortable material like plastic/micarta/wood where the tang provides the necessary strength, not the handle around it.