49 years and several wars. Plus advertising to consumers that it is a "survival knife".
I'm sure you could set up a test to demonstrate the obvious - the handle and tang will never fail before the blade.
-
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Cast-in-place aluminum knife handles
- Thread starter RX-79G
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49 years and several wars. Plus advertising to consumers that it is a "survival knife".
I'm sure you could set up a test to demonstrate the obvious - the handle and tang will never fail before the blade.
chiral.grolim
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I am wondering why you haven't, you're the one with something to prove, the rest of us get by with plastic/wood/micarta
I don't know how an unused knife blade gets fractured in a factory, but even if it did, a rigid handle would have held it together like a cast on a fractured bone. But it didn't fracture in the factory.
Here are a few popular full tang knives:
Becker
Enzo
ESEE
Bark River
Spyderco
I am wondering why you haven't, you're the one with something to prove, the rest of us get by with plastic/wood/micarta
I'm a little busy having to prove that full tang knives have lightening holes to someone who's an expert in such things.
chiral.grolim
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Yup, you demonstrated that "almost every full tang knife has lightening holes running through the tang" through a selection of 5, ignoring the hundreds of Mora, Kabar, Busse(+kin), Fallkniven, Onatrio, Gerber, BRKT, Buck, Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw, ESEE, Survive!, etc.etc. (not to mention individual makers) that don't. Wow, such honesty and integrity is sure to win customers and support! :thumbup: Good bye.
abbydaddy
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I have to say it seems a little bizarre how much vitriol the idea of a cast on aluminium handle has generated.
For most of my knife purposes I know that I would not want an aluminium handle, but that is because I don't like metal handles period. I like micarta and G10 for rough use, and wood for general use (because I like the way wood feels best). I also like antler. I like what I like because I like it, I don't think that other options are a threat to my preferences.
The knife I have used most for hunting and camping is a K. Tragbar from the 1970's that my Grandpa gave to me when I was 11. It has a rat tail tang (pictured) which I don't think anyone would describe as being super robust, and yet after decades of use it has not failed on me. And I have used it roughly at times over the years. This is to say that I think that most of the fuss over tang strength is a little silly.
But there are knife types that require extra robust handles and tangs. I personally think that a cast aluminium handle could be a good option on the right knife. If the process was not too expensive, it could be a way to more cheaply make a super robust machete/kukuri. That would be an option that could potentially appeal to me. Though I would worry about shock transfer, but it seems like that would be just as much of a problem with a full tang.
I guess what I'm saying is that the mechanical aspects of the cast aluminium handle seem sound. Whether or not that would translate into a knife I would want to buy is a totally different question. I don't personally like the look and feel of aluminium, but that doesn't make the idea bad.
For most of my knife purposes I know that I would not want an aluminium handle, but that is because I don't like metal handles period. I like micarta and G10 for rough use, and wood for general use (because I like the way wood feels best). I also like antler. I like what I like because I like it, I don't think that other options are a threat to my preferences.
The knife I have used most for hunting and camping is a K. Tragbar from the 1970's that my Grandpa gave to me when I was 11. It has a rat tail tang (pictured) which I don't think anyone would describe as being super robust, and yet after decades of use it has not failed on me. And I have used it roughly at times over the years. This is to say that I think that most of the fuss over tang strength is a little silly.
But there are knife types that require extra robust handles and tangs. I personally think that a cast aluminium handle could be a good option on the right knife. If the process was not too expensive, it could be a way to more cheaply make a super robust machete/kukuri. That would be an option that could potentially appeal to me. Though I would worry about shock transfer, but it seems like that would be just as much of a problem with a full tang.
I guess what I'm saying is that the mechanical aspects of the cast aluminium handle seem sound. Whether or not that would translate into a knife I would want to buy is a totally different question. I don't personally like the look and feel of aluminium, but that doesn't make the idea bad.
There are definitely some "personalities" on the forum that can't discuss sharpening without proof that blades get dull.
Knife tangs don't generally break. Yet we are inundated with advice to only buy "full tang knives" for hard use, and those don't always stay together either. My thought was just another way to get that heavily talked about strength without a lot of weight. Thanks for your thoughts.
Lovely old knife!
abbydaddy
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Thanks, it's served me very well. It isn't worth a lot of money, but to me it's priceless.
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This is flat out wrong.
A simple "No" would have sufficed as you answer. And if it is so obvious, why are you here arguing about it?
Let us also take you example. It is not a hard use survival, bush, or woods knife. It is a fighting dagger with a very specific purpose. Perhaps if you are going to compare it to our modern day hard use knives you could show some actual evidence it could survive what folks use their knives out in the woods for now days....
A dagger is utterly useless to most people who use knives.
I am wondering why you haven't, you're the one with something to prove, the rest of us get by with plastic/wood/micarta
This was explained to him the very first page yet he is still here arguing.
Sorry it too so many well thought out and evidence based posts for you to see that the OP just wants to argue a point he already "knows" is "correct". No amount of logic will work here.
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Man, he don't understand this unless you explain it to him as you did here, and again - he'll go out, check G-ool and come back to you with a question, something like "Hmm... so dagger does not encounter heavy use during training or hitting bones ?" It would be really funny to see hes answer, I know as registered user, he doesn't see my posts, but as non-registered forum viewer he does...
He doesn't get right away the difference between using a dagger and batoning a "bushcraft" blade... He's not arguing with stuff he actually researched and checked for itself, he's taking the info from your answers of his questions, picks contra-arguments from internet and puts them against your statement, he just likes to make you look stupid, that's why he started the thread, he said it for himself.
I bet he intentionally picked this subject because those aluminum handle knives are relatively rare birds because of the consumer demand I would guess, this days there are better materials that people prefer, than aluminum, so the industry adjusts accordingly and you don't see those so often. It's a clear supply and demand effect, but this is understandable for people that don't oppose naturally this system, not to make this political, but I'm sure you know exactly what I mean, you got to have certain mindset to position the "questions" in the thread title that way and argue it...
@abbydaddy ---> Thank you for bringing up the K.Tragbar knife, I was looking for more info on those because I have one very similar, made in Germany. On an off-topic note: I don't know anything about those and will greatly appreciate if you, or someone else gives me e search quote so I can learn more about those, TIA.
The reason I'm mentioning my specimen is that this knife saw heavy use outdoor from the unknown to me day it was purchased, all the way to 1995, when my son broke the tip of it. After this it was laying around basically as a paperweight, on my desk, currently "looking" at the computer
So while was in use, the aluminum (or whatever this material is) pommel rotten so much from sweat and whatever gets there, so the flat surface facing the horn scales was completely gone and the handle rattles around the tang.
Obviously, in your case it didn't have such problem, I'm only bringing it up because it's an example what happens with the aluminum in hot and sweaty environment, and because I was happy to see another knife similar to mine.
------------------------------
I researched the name of the knife maker you mentioned and came around to your blog, it's interesting :thumbup:
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I understand the point RX is making. Cast aluminum around a tang, given aluminum's properties, would likely reinforce the tang enough to prevent breakage in the handle more so than many modern, full tang methods. The concerns about aluminum being uncomfortable to many are valid. I really like the idea of a thin aluminum cast that completely surrounds the ricasso area like a bolster, then tapers thinner, allowing a thick coat of rubber to finish the shape of the handle. The finished handle would look something line a Res-C knive with a bolster of aluminum. Sounds pretty stout.
Obviously, we would need to see more hands on use of cast aluminum knives before we make any bold claims, but I follow the logic. The Gerber Mark Dagger is not the best example, being a dagger.
Obviously, we would need to see more hands on use of cast aluminum knives before we make any bold claims, but I follow the logic. The Gerber Mark Dagger is not the best example, being a dagger.
abbydaddy
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@abbydaddy ---> Thank you for bringing up the K.Tragbar knife, I was looking for more info on those because I have one very similar, made in Germany. On an off-topic note: I don't know anything about those and will greatly appreciate if you, or someone else gives me e search quote so I can learn more about those, TIA.
The reason I'm mentioning my specimen is that this knife saw heavy use outdoor from the unknown to me day it was purchased, all the way to 1995, when my son broke the tip of it. After this it was laying around basically as a paperweight, on my desk, currently "looking" at the computer
So while was in use, the aluminum (or whatever this material is) pommel rotten so much from sweat and whatever gets there, so the flat surface facing the horn scales was completely gone and the handle rattles around the tang.
Obviously, in your case it didn't have such problem, I'm only bringing it up because it's an example what happens with the aluminum in hot and sweaty environment, and because I was happy to see another knife similar to mine.
------------------------------
I researched the name of the knife maker you mentioned and came around to your blog, it's interesting :thumbup:
Hi Poceh, I responded about the K Tragbar in a PM, but I can definitely see why you would be concerned about corrosion for the aluminium based on that handle. I haven't had any trouble with the pommel on mine, but I am a cold weather guy, and I like to live in cold climates.
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I made my first and only knife, a 5" clip point bowie when 14 at school metalwork and used car leaf spring steel and cast an aluminum handle to the blade using a rectangular mild box steel mold cut in half longitudinally and wired together around the tang which was like a semi rat tail from memory (40years ago) that had been roughed up to ensure the casting bonded.
I made it completely by hand with hacksaw and many, many hours of filing and fine emery finish for both the blade and cast handle. The handle had four finger knotches and an integrated guard filed from the single casting. I learnt that aluminum clogs up files.
The blade was tempered when strawberry coloured and quenched in oil. I dont recall doing a scientific temper but it was left in a turned off preheated ceramic gas furnace after quenching. The casting was achieved by vertically placing the blade in a tin of damp sand to the depth of the handle and with the mold placed over the tang and supported by the sand for half an inch or so. Therefore no issues with the blade temper being affected. I was very proud of my handiwork and had it a few years before losing it but I'm sure I abused it throwing into trees etc and it didn't break.
Strange that I didn't get into knives as a hobby until about 7 years ago. I am a big fan of Gerber and Murphy carvers and miming knives with at least 15 plus boxed sets, a couple of Gerber hunters and a Coho all with aluminum handles. In Australia I never face issues of use in extreme cold but would certainly not be inclined to keep a metal handled knife on the dash or in a glovebox during summer if I needed to use it regularly.
I was amazed at all the broken knives you have pictured - do you collect pictures of such wrecks as I can't imagine anyone breaking that many knives?
The discussion certainly seems to be getting heated and I understand the point you are making re the implicit strength of a cast aluminum handle but I think some plastics and timbers are probably nearly as good when of the proper type and cast or fixed onto the tang properly, think of all the chisels made this way and many mechanics screwdrivers treated similarly.
I have some Hultafors knives which are seriously tough and dirt cheap - Hultafors Chisel Knife, Plumbers Knife, Craftmans Knife Heavy-Duty, HVK Craftmans Knife Enhanced Grip which are quite cheap but can literally be hammered in to wood and levered without breaking.
I bought them after viewing this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWrNgG548sg
And got mine from the UK bigredtoolboxaustralia online with free postage to Australia.
I made it completely by hand with hacksaw and many, many hours of filing and fine emery finish for both the blade and cast handle. The handle had four finger knotches and an integrated guard filed from the single casting. I learnt that aluminum clogs up files.
The blade was tempered when strawberry coloured and quenched in oil. I dont recall doing a scientific temper but it was left in a turned off preheated ceramic gas furnace after quenching. The casting was achieved by vertically placing the blade in a tin of damp sand to the depth of the handle and with the mold placed over the tang and supported by the sand for half an inch or so. Therefore no issues with the blade temper being affected. I was very proud of my handiwork and had it a few years before losing it but I'm sure I abused it throwing into trees etc and it didn't break.
Strange that I didn't get into knives as a hobby until about 7 years ago. I am a big fan of Gerber and Murphy carvers and miming knives with at least 15 plus boxed sets, a couple of Gerber hunters and a Coho all with aluminum handles. In Australia I never face issues of use in extreme cold but would certainly not be inclined to keep a metal handled knife on the dash or in a glovebox during summer if I needed to use it regularly.
I was amazed at all the broken knives you have pictured - do you collect pictures of such wrecks as I can't imagine anyone breaking that many knives?
The discussion certainly seems to be getting heated and I understand the point you are making re the implicit strength of a cast aluminum handle but I think some plastics and timbers are probably nearly as good when of the proper type and cast or fixed onto the tang properly, think of all the chisels made this way and many mechanics screwdrivers treated similarly.
I have some Hultafors knives which are seriously tough and dirt cheap - Hultafors Chisel Knife, Plumbers Knife, Craftmans Knife Heavy-Duty, HVK Craftmans Knife Enhanced Grip which are quite cheap but can literally be hammered in to wood and levered without breaking.
I bought them after viewing this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWrNgG548sg
And got mine from the UK bigredtoolboxaustralia online with free postage to Australia.
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He got them off them internet.
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FWIW, the Gerber's handle is not cast on the tang; rather on it's own then epoxied onto the blade tang...
The handles are cast in two part molds and have a preformed hole for insertion of the blade tang. After being extracted from the mold, the flash from the handle centerline and the sprue from the end of the pommel are removed. Then a lanyard hole was drilled in the pommel and the hole entrance and exit chamfered to remove the sharp edge. The handle then had the finish applied.
At some point the Gerber name, address and "Sword in Stone" logo was stamped on the obverse blade ricasso and the serial number on the reverse ricasso. After heat treatment, grinding, cutting of serrations (if any), sharpening and final polish, the notched blade tang and handle tang hole are coated with a thermosetting epoxy and the blade tang inserted into the handle.
The handles are cast in two part molds and have a preformed hole for insertion of the blade tang. After being extracted from the mold, the flash from the handle centerline and the sprue from the end of the pommel are removed. Then a lanyard hole was drilled in the pommel and the hole entrance and exit chamfered to remove the sharp edge. The handle then had the finish applied.
At some point the Gerber name, address and "Sword in Stone" logo was stamped on the obverse blade ricasso and the serial number on the reverse ricasso. After heat treatment, grinding, cutting of serrations (if any), sharpening and final polish, the notched blade tang and handle tang hole are coated with a thermosetting epoxy and the blade tang inserted into the handle.
Actually, I realize these particular Gerbers are not cast in place. They still serve as good examples of aluminum over steel construction.
I'm also aware of the intent of the Gerber MKII Combat/Survival knife. It's just that I realize that a knife advertised for nearly 50 years as a "survival knife" is going to get abused by people who don't have internet forums to tell them what to do.
The great thing about the internet is that you can find almost anything that someone decided to complain about with text or image searches. Except I have been totally unable to find any broken aluminum handled knives. I found a ton of abused Gerber MKIIs with broken tips and blades - but never a broken handle or tang. Same with all the other aluminum knives. And you don't have to be a material scientist to understand why that is - as several other posters on this thread understand.
Ishrub -
Fascinating story. Aluminum does indeed clog files and grinding stones. I don't suppose you still have your knife from school?
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I had a Gerber command2 that I carried and abused for about 15yrs or so, tough knife and it performed all the normal stuff I've done in the woods. Never had a problem with it. I've seen the cast aluminum handles over the years, they were more common 30 or 40 years ago. Also seen bronze and brass cast in place as handles. Its a viable handle material although it does get cold or hot quickly. Personally I like micarta and G10 and well made hollow handle knives.
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The Gerber MKII Combat/Survival knives were not cast on but all of the other early Gerber carvers and hunters were. Excalibur, Durendal, Balmung, Snick etc carving knives and forks and many more; Miming steak and mini version Pixie; then the Gerber hunting styles that originated with the carvers like Shorty (boning type) and Pixie paring (bird and trout style) put in leather field sheaths such as the Shorty GP knife, Flayer skinner, Coho fish knife etc etc. Over the decades they released them with special finish on the handles such as 'Cats Tongue' sprayed molten metal onto the aluminnum handle. Different colours on handles and Chrome on top of the Aluminum etc etc.
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Not really. Have you ever held an actual Gerber MKII? The design of both the handle and blade (plus the overall size of the knife) is such that it would never generate enough force in use to test the handle/epoxy/tang juncture to failure unless it was intentional destruction.
Plus, what that shows to me is how good the thermo epoxy is at holding the two different materials together; steel and aluminum. :thumbup:
If anything, the shear strength on the epoxy is what could be looked at as the most impressive aspect of the design and it may even act as a buffer for shock load.
If someone creates an injection molded aluminum handled knife I'd gladly use it as hard as my other knives. You might not like the result.
