CFK Knife update and company history

[beachmaster]

Alright, I'll add the .02 even though no one asked for it.

I'll begin with saying this. Steel is less important than heat treat. You guys are smarter than me, so I guess I didn't need to mention it.

Next, I have been contacted personally by 2 pakistinian knife makers who wanted me to design and distribute knives for them. Admittedly I declined.

Here is the honest OPINION part.

I don't believe that these knives were made in England. England is one of the most taxed countries in the world. It is not a place where you source affordable labor or materials.

I also have experience with a large company on Etsy who claimed that they got their knives from England, but technically got them from Pakistan.

Understandably, I'm sure some business address and legal wizardry could have been done to legally make pakistinian knives "from England"

That is all opinion. Cfk knives look EXACTLY like what I understand to be pakistinian knives.

I don't personally care if they rip off designs. I design knives, and they will eventually get ripped off, but their knives won't offer what mine do.

No budget knife can offer what a high end maker does.
They are two different market segments. Like a Harley and a Buell. (OOPS! Man I love Buell)

With that being said, I don't care if the knives were sourced in Pakistan and Heat treated here. I would appreciate honest marketing, but if the heat treat and fit and finish is good, and an American company is profiting, we'll then ok. Better than China or Taiwan imho.

So! As a youtube knife comparison... Guy, I will be trying to get my hands on one of these knives, and i will give an unbiased review on it.

If it does well, I may even compare it head to head with a ton of typical American knives. Because that is what I LOVE doing.

Anyways, I am excited to get a CFK in hand, and see how it does.

 

[buckfynn]

This is either your "troll account" or you are simply a shit-stirer.

Neither one just to set the record straight.

 

[Thomas Linton]

 

[Sam Wilson]

Wow, are they using their affordable English labor and "burger flipping grill skill" to make Damascus folders, now? They better hurry up and patent/trademark that pattern, and I'm sure they've contacted and have an agreement with Spyderco for the use of their trademarked and patented "Spyderhole." Empirically speaking, that is.

 

[Thomas Linton]

 

[druid189]

Wow, are they using their affordable English labor and "burger flipping grill skill" to make Damascus folders, now? They better hurry up and patent/trademark that pattern, and I'm sure they've contacted and have an agreement with Spyderco for the use of their trademarked and patented "Spyderhole." Empirically speaking, that is.

Well, I'm no expert on the accepted Labor Practices for British Subjects....and I'm sure the majority here isn't either....but I suspect, just like here in the US, they have such things as "apprenticeships" and "unskilled labor" jobs on that tiny little island that is like 1/30th the size of the US:

http://www.travelersdigest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/uk-california.jpg

......It's 57% the size of California

......Texas is almost 3 times larger

...and people are acting like it's the size of Russia, with the population of India, with the countrywide industrial set up that looks like the "skunkworks" for Lockheed-Martin. Nothing could be further from the truth. London has the approximate population of New York City [8.3M / 8.4M respectively] but the country's population in 2011 was 53.01 million while the population of California alone is 38.8M in 2011.....and that is Empirically speaking.

But I'm sure if you were seriously interested in the facts, you'd have looked this up yourself:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/taxonomy/...table&sortDirection=DESCENDING&sortBy=pubdate

http://www.nomisweb.co.uk/census/2011/dc6603ew.pdf

But that's neither here, nor there [pardon the pun]...

"England is so awesome!" No it's not. Been there and for the most part, it sucks.

Still....no one has provided empirical proof that these knives were made in Pakistan. No one. The "picture" that was "offered as proof" holds no more credence than the following claim:

"This is a picture of me and my family camping on the Appalachian Trail"

[/URL][/IMG]

....when in fact it isn't. That was taken at a local campground, 25 miles from my home.

The problem is this. Here we have, what I believe to be, three factions of people fighting to have their words heard. They are:

1. "prove they are not made in Pakistan"
2. "prove they are made in Pakistan"
3. "Who the Hell cares, so long as they are worth the money I spend on it"

I'm leaning equally between #'s 2 and 3. For one, if you are making a claim that they are made in Pakistan, prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. As of yet, no one has done this....NO one. I cannot prove they weren't....but having had knives that were, I really don't think they are. Could I be wrong? Sure...but I have no reason to believe they are...not by what I can see in front of me.

For another, I don't care where a blade is made, so long as it meets the minimum criteria I assign it AND is priced in a manner in which I will pay for it. Being that these blades are sold at auction, that prices is determined by ME.

If a person wants to challenge a knife/a company's business practices that's their right. If you are going to make [or support] the libelous claim that the business owner are lying about their products then you'd better have proof do make that claim. "Well he said to me..." - is called "hearsay" in a court of law.

hear·say -- ˈhirˌsā/ -- noun
information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.

It means nothing and is not proof.

"BUT THEY COPY OTHER KNIVES!!!" So? Like we haven't seen that before.....AND without all the bi***hing and moaning:

Case:

Schrade-Walden

.....and the list of hypocritical "favorites" is endless...

 

[Sam Wilson]

Here are some interesting pics I found on the internets. First, are a couple of “tracker” knives sold by CFK.

And here we have a “tracker” knife made by another company, and sold on Alibaba. Not an exact copy, but extremely close, even down to the number and type of tubes used to hold the handle on.

Now, here is where it gets fun. Let’s see what CFK has to say about their knife, which let’s not forget, is “hand forged in England”:

Now, let’s see what the manufacturer has to say about their knife, very clearly made in Pakistan:

Hmmmmmm…
And if that isn’t interesting enough, let’s take a close look at the logos used on the knives:
CFK:

Other guy from Pakistan (I can’t make out exactly what it says, but it clearly doesn’t say CFK Cutlery. The background is VERY CLEARLY the same, though.):

So, they have the same number of layers of steel, the same hardness, very similar descriptions and appearances, and they even have the same logo? Empirically speaking, I find that very interesting. Hmmmm…

But I suppose that can all be explained away by talking about English labor rates and apprentices and whatnot. Sure. If all of this, plus what other members have said in this thread and several others doesn't give you ANY reason to think they're made in Pakistan, it's because you simply don't want to.

 

[Sam Wilson]

Well, I'm no expert on the accepted Labor Practices for British Subjects....and I'm sure the majority here isn't either....but I suspect, just like here in the US, they have such things as "apprenticeships" and "unskilled labor" jobs on that tiny little island that is like 1/30th the size of the US:

http://www.travelersdigest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/uk-california.jpg

......It's 57% the size of California

......Texas is almost 3 times larger

...and people are acting like it's the size of Russia, with the population of India, with the countrywide industrial set up that looks like the "skunkworks" for Lockheed-Martin. Nothing could be further from the truth. London has the approximate population of New York City [8.3M / 8.4M respectively] but the country's population in 2011 was 53.01 million while the population of California alone is 38.8M in 2011.....and that is Empirically speaking.

But I'm sure if you were seriously interested in the facts, you'd have looked this up yourself:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/taxonomy/...table&sortDirection=DESCENDING&sortBy=pubdate

http://www.nomisweb.co.uk/census/2011/dc6603ew.pdf

But that's neither here, nor there [pardon the pun]...

"England is so awesome!" No it's not. Been there and for the most part, it sucks.

Still....no one has provided empirical proof that these knives were made in Pakistan. No one. The "picture" that was "offered as proof" holds no more credence than the following claim:

"This is a picture of me and my family camping on the Appalachian Trail"

[/URL][/IMG]

....when in fact it isn't. That was taken at a local campground, 25 miles from my home.

The problem is this. Here we have, what I believe to be, three factions of people fighting to have their words heard. They are:

1. "prove they are not made in Pakistan"
2. "prove they are made in Pakistan"
3. "Who the Hell cares, so long as they are worth the money I spend on it"

I'm leaning equally between #'s 2 and 3. For one, if you are making a claim that they are made in Pakistan, prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. As of yet, no one has done this....NO one. I cannot prove they weren't....but having had knives that were, I really don't think they are. Could I be wrong? Sure...but I have no reason to believe they are...not by what I can see in front of me.

For another, I don't care where a blade is made, so long as it meets the minimum criteria I assign it AND is priced in a manner in which I will pay for it. Being that these blades are sold at auction, that prices is determined by ME.

If a person wants to challenge a knife/a company's business practices that's their right. If you are going to make [or support] the libelous claim that the business owner are lying about their products then you'd better have proof do make that claim. "Well he said to me..." - is called "hearsay" in a court of law.

hear·say -- ˈhirˌsā/ -- noun
information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.

It means nothing and is not proof.

"BUT THEY COPY OTHER KNIVES!!!" So? Like we haven't seen that before.....AND without all the bi***hing and moaning:

Case:

Schrade-Walden

.....and the list of hypocritical "favorites" is endless...

Additionally, it's pretty insulting to call hand forging and grinding of knives "unskilled labor." Not to blow it out of proportion, but if you really think it's the same as flipping burgers or being a Walmart greeter as you alluded to earlier, you should try it yourself. I have. I don't think there's much of a comparison to be made. But that's just me.

The other thing you still don't seem to get is that it is not just the copying of designs. And yes, the makers that were being copied were rather upset over it, trademarked or not. It's one thing to copy a simple drop point pattern or something similar. It's entirely different to copy a unique design, especially without asking permission. Even CFK seemed to understand this, as they reportedly ceased to offer those designs after being confronted by the makers. It's all in that thread linked at the beginning of this thread. It's the lack of transparency that makes people suspicious. If they're not being honest about the origin of the knife (allegedly), what else are they not being honest about (allegedly)???

Also, throwing around the word "libelous" is rather humorous. If this were to go to court, what do you think CFK would have to produce to prove it was libel? Oh, I don't know, maybe proof of where their blades were made. How have they done on that front so far? Hmmmmm...

 

[druid189]

As far as the Alibaba site goes....yes, that does seem fairly suspicious. However...I guess it would be pointless to post all the "fake Buck/Gerber/et al" threads started in those sections, wouldn't it? I guess no one ever copied anything that wasn't a brand name, or cool looking graphics.... ........coincidences aside, that's still not proof. If you think that's them and want the accolades for "Empirically calling them out," then roll your dice and challenge them in court.

Additionally, it's pretty insulting to call hand forging and grinding of knives "unskilled labor." Not to blow it out of proportion, but if you really think it's the same as flipping burgers or being a Walmart greeter as you alluded to earlier, you should try it yourself. I have. I don't think there's much of a comparison to be made. But that's just me.

The other thing you still don't seem to get is that it is not just the copying of designs. And yes, the makers that were being copied were rather upset over it, trademarked or not. It's one thing to copy a simple drop point pattern or something similar. It's entirely different to copy a unique design, especially without asking permission. Even CFK seemed to understand this, as they reportedly ceased to offer those designs after being confronted by the makers. It's all in that thread linked at the beginning of this thread. It's the lack of transparency that makes people suspicious. If they're not being honest about the origin of the knife (allegedly), what else are they not being honest about (allegedly)???

Also, throwing around the word "libelous" is rather humorous. If this were to go to court, what do you think CFK would have to produce to prove it was libel? Oh, I don't know, maybe proof of where their blades were made. How have they done on that front so far? Hmmmmm...

Sam...I think you are misunderstanding the point I was making.....leaving you feel "insulted." That's not what I was trying to get at...

I am not saying custom makers like yourself are unskilled......but....you did start somewhere, didn't you? The moment you were born, I don't think God imparted all your current knowledge on knife making....did He? It was a learned skill over a period of time...thus....while you were learning, you were an UNSKILLED laborer - later, turned into SKILLED labor. All I'm saying is anyone can run a belt grinder and follow a template on how a knife grind should be. That doesn't necessarily require skilled labor.

Now moving on to "the other thing" paragraph. I do get it, I simply don't care [as much as others].

Also, you admit there were "copying incidents that were apparently stopped" - but even after than, everyone's still bit**ing about "copying designs?" And it was said on another thread [?] [forget by whom] that the TBT blade design was apparently "open sourced" but not the name. Ok, so what's the problem then?

and I already said it....this whole "transparency" thing is nothing more than people being nosy and wanting to know what's "none of your effin business." If someone thinks they are lying, then feel free to challenge it in court. Provide your proof to that court and demand they provide theirs. It's pretty simple if you ask me.

He said he sources his steel from _________ and gets the blades ground/heat treated ______. Then they are shipped here and handles are put on them, sheath leather sourced from ______.

.......but that's not good enough. Well IMO, too freaking bad.

----------
Hypothetically speaking, let's assume I started a business. If I put this in my sales/site:

"I buy flat stock here in the US and grind them in stock removal style. I get them heat treated them locally.

Handle materials vary, but include ___, ___, ___ and ____...subject to availability.

Here's pictures of my knives, their specs and their prices ________...to include my warranty of ______ .

I ship from _____ to CONUS only, via ______ service. "

As a result of only having finite amount of designs to make, they may or may not be similar to other makers' designs [but never intentionally though].
----------

Anything particularly wrong with that? I don't think so but YMMV.

If I state it's O1, D2 or 1095 in the specs, then that is exactly what the customer should get. If they don't get what the ad said it was, then they are encouraged to challenge that in court.

Where exactly I got my steel from is none of your business. Where exactly I got the heat treating done is also none of your business. I'd have my business records to prove all my claims TO A COURT, provided anyone ever took me to there for some reason...but that's it. I don't have to spill my life's guts to anyone I choose not to. If you choose to do so then that's your right...but just because you choose to doesn't mean I have to.

Customers will either buy them or they won't. They'll like them or they won't. The knife and customer service will sell it or kill it.

Yet CFK has detailed way more information on their sites than I just listed in my hypothetical scenario. You just don't like the fact they won't list the "exactly where" the knives are ground and heat treated. I say, "too bad."

And like I said a dozen times before..........the only people that seem to be making the biggest/loudest gripes are people like you, trying to sell off thousand dollar+ knives - and you don't like being undercut by hundreds of dollars per knife. That would include the posters who are either 1. Makers hiding behind their troll account; 2. fanboys of those makers; or 3. actual trolls who thrive on forum drama.

Since I'm none of those, I have no vested interest other than "is this knife worth it [to me]."
--------------------

EDIT: I just checked NJ Steel Baron's website. Seems that at least ONE steel is imported steel from Japan: http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/hitachi-blue-2/

.......guess it's completely implausible that other steels they sell are also imported......

So by me buying steel from NJ Steel Baron, who apparently imports steels for use in blades....according to YOU methodology and "sensibilities"....I'd be held libel for using "imported steel?"

 

[Sam Wilson]

You can lead a horse to water…

It’s not just me. Ask just about any maker where they buy their steel. They will tell you. Ask them where they have their heat treating done, or their process for doing it themselves. They will tell you. Ask them basically any question at all, and they will tell you. At least every maker that I have ever spoken with. It’s that simple, unless it is some special proprietary finishing process.

As far as the pics/info from Alibaba, they don’t strike you as the least bit strange? Nearly identical knives? Nearly identical descriptions? Totally identical logos? Along with the fact that dozens of other members and makers that seriously doubt (read: don’t believe) that they were “hand forged in England?” And suspect that they were made in Pakistan? Who doesn’t like what they’re seeing, now? You’re starting to sound like a shill, complete with a free knife from the company.

Last I checked, they don’t make hollow handle knives, and we cater to different markets. So I think it is beyond a stretch to say I am worried about being “undercut.” And yes, I tell people anything they want to know about my knives and how they’re made.

Going to court has nothing to do with anything. It has to do with the way the knife business is done. If you want to be part of it, and be accepted in the knife world, you have to play by its’ rules, to an extent. That means not taking other maker’s unique designs without permission, being transparent, and several other things. Ask yourself why this same cloud seems to follow CFK wherever they go. If you don’t get it after all that, stick around long enough and it may become obvious.

 

[druid189]

Added/edited this as you did:

EDIT: I just checked NJ Steel Baron's website. Seems that at least ONE steel is imported steel from Japan: http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/hitachi-blue-2/

.......guess it's completely implausible that other steels they sell are also imported......


So by me buying steel from NJ Steel Baron, who apparently imports steels for use in blades....according to YOU methodology and "sensibilities"....I'd be held libel for using "imported steel?"

That's a direct answer to your first 2 sentences below.

I'm going to reply to your quote below inside the quote but in red. Please don't have a melt down about it, it's just easier:

You can lead a horse to water…

It’s not just me. Ask just about any maker where they buy their steel. They will tell you. Ask them where they have their heat treating done, or their process for doing it themselves. They will tell you. Ask them basically any question at all, and they will tell you. At least every maker that I have ever spoken with. It’s that simple, unless it is some special proprietary finishing process.

I just posted my edit as you posted this response. NJ Steel Baron apparently imports [at least SOME of] their steel....so by your own gripes, everyone using that site should be flogged and crucified for using "imported steel" in their creations. Have YOU ever shopped there for YOUR steel? In my fictitious story, I said I bought my steel here in the US. That being true, the steel might actually be imported. I may not actually know that....but some idiot is going to flip that into "HE'S A LIAR!!' and people tend to capitalize on those meaningless facts.

and so what? Good for them. If they want to answer those questions, great....but just because they do doesn't mean I should have to.

As far as the pics/info from Alibaba, they don’t strike you as the least bit strange? Nearly identical knives? Nearly identical descriptions? Totally identical logos? Along with the fact that dozens of other members and makers that seriously doubt (read: don’t believe) that they were “hand forged in England?” And suspect that they were made in Pakistan? Who doesn’t like what they’re seeing, now? You’re starting to sound like a shill, complete with a free knife from the company.

You and I can find it as "strange" [and coincidental] all we like. And yes, I find it a bit suspicious but it's still not proof. Why do I say that? Because there's a 50/50 chance that CFK could actually be the victim of the same thing you [might be] accusing them of. Never thought of that, did you? Never considered that it's not just the'big' companies that get stuff stolen from? Not saying that's what's actually going on.....but it's not impossible. Given I have no facts to support or refute that, I don't jump on bandwagons like others might.

Try to get that through your head. Please pretend that no one here has ever "right click/save picture as" on this forum....then you are absolutely, 100% delusional. Some may have used that saved picture to inspire their own creations. You are a custom builder.....you NEVER went to a show and saw another maker's creation and thought to yourself "Hmmm"....? And if you say "never" I'm going to call "bullshit." Somewhere, somehow, you saw something that inspired you to build something else. Should I lambaste you for copying that something, even if just a little bit?

If it really means that much to you, call your lawyer and challenge them.

Last I checked, they don’t make hollow handle knives, and we cater to different markets. So I think it is beyond a stretch to say I am worried about being “undercut.” And yes, I tell people anything they want to know about my knives and how they’re made.

​I said "like" you......not necessarily you. However, it's not that much a 'stretch' to think you "niche" makers wouldn't come running to each-other's aid in this manner.

Going to court has nothing to do with anything. It has to do with the way the knife business is done. If you want to be part of it, and be accepted in the knife world, you have to play by its’ rules, to an extent. That means not taking other maker’s unique designs without permission, being transparent, and several other things. Ask yourself why this same cloud seems to follow CFK wherever they go. If you don’t get it after all that, stick around long enough and it may become obvious.

going to court has everything to do with everything. If you, I or Michael Jackson make a claim that ____ isn't what it says it is then the court room is where you prove it.

And no I don't have to play by your rules, Cold Steel's rules [which apparently include ludicrous law suits as well], Bucks, BUSSE, KABAR ow "old so-and-so forge's" rules. I have to play by my business rules and that is pretty much this [not that I have a business but if I did, it would be]:

If you sell an item, make sure it's the item you listed.
If you describe that item, make sure it matches that description.
If your item has a warranty, make sure you abide by it.

You provide a 'nice' service as you already described. I doubt that your business is in any danger from any other knife company. Why is that? YOU decided to provide a product that very few chose to. Good for you. however, these "guilds" that all you knife makers belong to have those "rules" you allude to. In my fake scenario up there ^, I have no interest in belonging to that guild....therefore I have no "rules" to have to abide by. You will all come running to each other's defense if not out of "friendship".....for the "betterment of the guild."

I've personally seen the way some of these guild's work [not knife guilds, was a reenactor guild]....and you couldn't PAY me to be part of them any more. Their rules are ridiculously fascist for one.....but hey....that's another story.

 

[Sam Wilson]

At this point, you’ve lost me, and this no longer makes any sense. In several dozen (if not more) posts through at least 3 or 4 threads now, you are the only one I have seen who even remotely believes these knives are made in England. So I guess the point was made. Go post pictures of these knives on British Blades, and see what happens. Here’s a heads up: http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?194508-CFK-custom-knives

I don’t understand anything about the Japanese steel from New Jersey Steel Baron, so I’ll just agree to disagree on that one. And yes, I have purchased steel from them. Even talked about it publicly. I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

To be quite honest, I don’t really understand most of what else you said, either. So I’ll put this in here and you can try to understand it someday. ALL of us are inspired by someone else’s design. That’s fine. Completely copying another maker’s UNIQUE design without permission is always a no-no. Period. This stuff rarely, if ever, goes to court. That’s just not how it’s usually done in the knife world, particularly in the custom side. (I’m not even going to address the Cold Steel thing, has nothing to do with this.)

As far as forcing you to play by someone else’s rules or whatever you’re rambling about, you’re not a maker or manufacturer. So you’re not even part of that equation. Why don’t you start making some knives that don’t appear to be what you claim, and see how long you can last without having to explain it. Why do you think CFK keeps wanting to break into Bladeforums and be accepted here? Those guys are reading this thread. They know what’s going on. Just because you don’t understand, don’t think for a second that they don’t get it.

Lastly, I’m not a member of any guild or association, so I don’t even know what you’re talking about. Focus all of that critical thinking on the pictures above, and the strikingly similar knives from Pakistan. Everybody else gets it. Keep trying...

 

[Sam Wilson]

Additional perspective: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-769583.html

 

[Thomas Linton]

NOW on sale on ePrey "CFK-USA-Custom-Handmade-Damascus-Hunter-Camp-TRACKER-EDC-Saw-Back-Micarta-Knife" [all caps in original] Forum rules bar links to open auctions. The "Tracker" name is used in numerous other knives being sold by CFK, as any interested person can find out for themselves.


In a suit for defamation, spoken or written, the burden of proving the falsity of the statement in question by a preponderance of the evidence is on the plaintiff. If the alleged defamation was as to the origin of the product, all records regarding the origin of the product and it's components would be subject to discovery.

 

[druid189]

At this point, you’ve lost me, and this no longer makes any sense. In several dozen (if not more) posts through at least 3 or 4 threads now, you are the only one I have seen who even remotely believes these knives are made in England. So I guess the point was made. Go post pictures of these knives on British Blades, and see what happens. Here’s a heads up: http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?194508-CFK-custom-knives

I don’t understand anything about the Japanese steel from New Jersey Steel Baron, so I’ll just agree to disagree on that one. And yes, I have purchased steel from them. Even talked about it publicly. I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

To be quite honest, I don’t really understand most of what else you said, either. So I’ll put this in here and you can try to understand it someday. ALL of us are inspired by someone else’s design. That’s fine. Completely copying another maker’s UNIQUE design without permission is always a no-no. Period. This stuff rarely, if ever, goes to court. That’s just not how it’s usually done in the knife world, particularly in the custom side. (I’m not even going to address the Cold Steel thing, has nothing to do with this.)

As far as forcing you to play by someone else’s rules or whatever you’re rambling about, you’re not a maker or manufacturer. So you’re not even part of that equation. Why don’t you start making some knives that don’t appear to be what you claim, and see how long you can last without having to explain it. Why do you think CFK keeps wanting to break into Bladeforums and be accepted here? Those guys are reading this thread. They know what’s going on. Just because you don’t understand, don’t think for a second that they don’t get it.

Lastly, I’m not a member of any guild or association, so I don’t even know what you’re talking about. Focus all of that critical thinking on the pictures above, and the strikingly similar knives from Pakistan. Everybody else gets it. Keep trying...

I'll respond paragraph by paragraph.

I didn't say I remotely believed that these blades are made in England, I said the company said they were and based on what's in front of me, I have no reason to disbelieve them. I said "those who say they aren't, prove it." That has yet to occur....so I'm left with having to take the seller's word for it. You don't. We get that. Ok, prove them wrong. I also said in another post "I'm not here to prove origin" and in fact, I believe I made it abundantly clear that "I don't care where they are made, so long as they meet [or exceed] my expectations." Only time [with the blade] will tell.

How convenient...you agree to disagree on that one. NJ Steel buys and sells steel, right? Where do they get it from? Certainly not Bethlehem Steel - dead and leveled now what, 15 years? How about from Sparrows Point? Again a "nope?" Hmmm. Seems to me that NJ Steel might just have to source their products from where? Oh that's right......possibly [and most likely] from foreign countries. And you criticize someone/some company for using "not US steel" in their blades? You plainly admitted to using NJ Steel. Since there's a good chance the steel you purchased...from NJ....was made in Pakistan, Japan, China, Philippines or west Kookamunga for that matter...you are as guilty of the very thing you are complaining about. There's the hypocrisy in action that I referred to. It's ok for YOU to do it but "damn" someone else for it.

If a person, designer, company or entity feels their product was copied without permission, take it to court. But wait....that person, designer, company or entity was to lazy or cheap to patent protect that design? Oh well Pffffffffffft....then tough crap. They apparently didn't care enough about protecting their interests, then don't bitch about it later.

If I wanted to do that, I'd have started years ago. At my age, I'd learn very little before I died. And I don't care if they are reading this or not and I submit it's YOU who refuses to understand - understand what the business mindset in 2015 really is. Oh I agree there's a certain degree of romanticism about making blades from scratch and cherish "the old standards" by "the forefathers" - but that's you and a handful of other "dinosaurs" who live and work in the past and rebuke the present/future. It takes you what....< 6 months to crank out one knife at $1000? These guys have been doing this since [according to EBay] 2006? Apparently their business is booming well enough to make you eat your own words... http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...y-company&ftab=AllFeedback&myworld=true&rt=nc and dare I say, their feedback score is completely disproportionate to everyone's thoughts of selling "crap," regardless of where they get their steel from/blades made/whatever.

Well that's nice to know. Guilds are nothing more than elitists and effete snobs, clinging on to the romantic notion that everyone and everything else NOT created by them is beneath them............oh wait.....I guess you must have missed the part where there's a possibility that CFK got copied like Buck...thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's right, I forgot. CFK is the bad guy here...nothing else is even remotely possible......


I prefer Hershey Park to Jurassic Park. Be well and good night.

 

[Sam Wilson]

I'll respond paragraph by paragraph.

I didn't say I remotely believed that these blades are made in England, I said the company said they were and based on what's in front of me, I have no reason to disbelieve them. I said "those who say they aren't, prove it." That has yet to occur....so I'm left with having to take the seller's word for it. You don't. We get that. Ok, prove them wrong. I also said in another post "I'm not here to prove origin" and in fact, I believe I made it abundantly clear that "I don't care where they are made, so long as they meet [or exceed] my expectations." Only time [with the blade] will tell.

How convenient...you agree to disagree on that one. NJ Steel buys and sells steel, right? Where do they get it from? Certainly not Bethlehem Steel - dead and leveled now what, 15 years? How about from Sparrows Point? Again a "nope?" Hmmm. Seems to me that NJ Steel might just have to source their products from where? Oh that's right......possibly [and most likely] from foreign countries. And you criticize someone/some company for using "not US steel" in their blades? You plainly admitted to using NJ Steel. Since there's a good chance the steel you purchased...from NJ....was made in Pakistan, Japan, China, Philippines or west Kookamunga for that matter...you are as guilty of the very thing you are complaining about. There's the hypocrisy in action that I referred to. It's ok for YOU to do it but "damn" someone else for it.

If a person, designer, company or entity feels their product was copied without permission, take it to court. But wait....that person, designer, company or entity was to lazy or cheap to patent protect that design? Oh well Pffffffffffft....then tough crap. They apparently didn't care enough about protecting their interests, then don't bitch about it later.

If I wanted to do that, I'd have started years ago. At my age, I'd learn very little before I died. And I don't care if they are reading this or not and I submit it's YOU who refuses to understand - understand what the business mindset in 2015 really is. Oh I agree there's a certain degree of romanticism about making blades from scratch and cherish "the old standards" by "the forefathers" - but that's you and a handful of other "dinosaurs" who live and work in the past and rebuke the present/future. It takes you what....< 6 months to crank out one knife at $1000? These guys have been doing this since [according to EBay] 2006? Apparently their business is booming well enough to make you eat your own words... http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...y-company&ftab=AllFeedback&myworld=true&rt=nc and dare I say, their feedback score is completely disproportionate to everyone's thoughts of selling "crap," regardless of where they get their steel from/blades made/whatever.

Well that's nice to know. Guilds are nothing more than elitists and effete snobs, clinging on to the romantic notion that everyone and everything else NOT created by them is beneath them............oh wait.....I guess you must have missed the part where there's a possibility that CFK got copied like Buck...thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's right, I forgot. CFK is the bad guy here...nothing else is even remotely possible......


I prefer Hershey Park to Jurassic Park. Be well and good night.

Are we even still talking about knives, here?

 

[fishface5]

Ha ha, Druid is arguing with himself, and winning!
Don't worry Sam Wilson, everyone else gets it.

 

[Sam Wilson]

Also, my point about the Japanese steel was that I don't understand what bearing that has on any level in the context of a company possibly misrepresenting where their products are made. I don't get the point you're trying to make about that. At all. I have no problem with anything foreign made. The possible misrepresentation is my problem. If there's inaccuracy/misrepresentation in one area, is it anywhere else??? That's the problem. Trust.

 

[Sam Wilson]

Ha ha, Druid is arguing with himself, and winning!
Don't worry Sam Wilson, everyone else gets it.

I briefly questioned my sanity. Thank you...

 

[druid189]

I'm not changing your text...only using bold to point out what I'm referring to:

Also, my point about the Japanese steel was that I don't understand what bearing that has on any level in the context of a company possibly misrepresenting where their products are made. I don't get the point you're trying to make about that. At all. I have no problem with anything foreign made. The possible misrepresentation is my problem. If there's inaccuracy/misrepresentation in one area, is it anywhere else??? That's the problem. Trust.

possibly. That's the root of the problem. Possibly.

Possibly isn't proof. It's conjecture. If I take a suspect into custody and go before the Judge with "possibly" committed "this" crime - guess what happens? I have to deal in proof...not "possibly." Call it being anal, call it an occupational hazard. Whatever you decide to call it, "Possibly misrepresenting where their products are made" is just another way of saying for "well, we really don't know." They claim they are made in England. People want the street address of where they are done [from what I gather]. They won't provide it. Here starts the conspiracy theory and all the "possibly" people can squeeze out of it.

So trust is an issue? OK then, let me ask a two-part question...

Part 1:
Do you, or don't you, trust the feedback given to that business assigned by EBay? By what I see in that link, it's 99.9% positive and since 2006 - with a crap-ton of purchases made of a 9 year period. How is that in any way "untrustworthy?"

Part 2:
I see you have a website and a FB page. Sell them there do you? Do you use/have you ever used EBay to sell your knives? What is your feedback score in comparison to theirs? What sales volume comparisons can you provide compared to theirs?


In looking into his EBay page and everything I can see about them - I'd dare say that they really don't need this [or any other] forum to sell their knives. It looks to me that they do enough volume to never have the need to be accepted here at all. In fact, that's apparently what's going on already.

Sam. I'm not condemning your personal ethics and I'm certainly not questioning your knife making abilities. I'm questioning your unwillingness to distinguish the difference between what is provable and what isn't. Are CFK knives made in England? I have no idea. In Pakistan? Hell I don't know...........but neither do you, nor does anyone else on this forum. What you [a "collective you"] "know" is only what your opinions are...and those opinions are derived from the "not knowing" their particulars of personal business ties. Again, if it were me, I'd say "__this information__" is simply none of your business. It's ok to disagree with that but jumping to conclusions based on "possibly" is simply wrong. So they don't meet your particular standards....that hurts you how? You said it yourself...they don't make hollow handled knives......and please spare me the "it hurts the industry" crap. If you cared that much about the industry, you'd be buying knives - not making them.

All I know is the blade I have in my lap right now does NOT feel, look, behave or resemble anything I've ever had the misfortune of owning that was made in Pakistan. So to that I simply say, "I'll take his word for it."

...but if that's just not good enough, I don't know what else to tell you.

EDIT: It just dawned on me to say this......

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps it were possible that some company in Pakistan actually bought CFK knives to resell under their own brand [name]? [IDK....kind of a reach....but it is plausible...wouldn't you agree?]

kind of like....General Mills, who sells Cheerios, makes batches that don't quite meet the "specs" to name-brand them.....and sells their "oops" production to Aldi Foods to rebrand under their name.

Make sense?.......just a thought......