Sam Wilson
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Messages
- 3,066
Awesome, one more rumor down! So who do you guys use to forge and grind your blades? Or where in England? Let's put this thing to rest once and for all.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
CFK Knife update and company history
- Thread starter Last_Ditch
- Start date
Awesome, one more rumor down! So who do you guys use to forge and grind your blades? Or where in England? Let's put this thing to rest once and for all.
Actually, if you want to get right down to it by your mode of thought:
Native Americans should sue every single person, ever using the terms "tracker; scout; brave; chief; maiden....."......etc, etc....on anything made but not by an Indian.
Likewise, the Celts should sue the catholic church for using a Triquetra as their "Trinity" - considering the earliest known Triquetra predates Christianity by about 5000-7000 years.
...and anyone claiming heritage to Ancient Mesopotamia or descendants of Egypt, the German's use of what is now called the "Swastika"......
As ridiculous as that all sounds, it's no different. Trademarking every single word or image in a spoken or visual language is not only impossible it's not even practical.
I could absolutely agree that the commingled terms - "Tom Brown Tracker" - could be trademarked to describe the absolute unique design of that particular knife. You'll never get an argument from me. But as it was said [not by me] and as I interpret it, the "TBT" blade design itself was apparently "open sourced" - meaning anyone and everyone could duplicate the design, trademarking is no longer applicable to the design. The name? Yes...the blade design? no....not in my interpretation [but I'm not a trademark or patent lawyer so my interpretation may be flawed].
...but to trademark "common" terms is defined here:
http://www.inta.org/TrademarkBasics/FactSheets/Pages/TrademarksvsGenericTermsFactSheet.aspx
and the "general FAQ's" found here:
http://www.uspto.gov/learning-and-resources/trademark-faqs
Under the first link, they describe this:
1. What is meant by generic term?
Generic terms are common words or terms, often found in the dictionary, that identify products and services and are not specific to any particular source. It is not possible to register as a trademark a term that is generic for the goods and/or services identified in the application. If a trademark becomes generic, often as a result of improper use, rights in the mark may no longer be enforceable.
...and as I read that, the use of the term "tracker" by itself is about as "generic" as it can be.
Last edited:
No I don't think we need to move the goalposts on this one.
It's pretty clear what that particular item is and when everything looks like a cheap copy you can be pretty sure it's all cheap copies.
I say celebrate that you make cheap copies. Be proud and honest; don't try hide the truth.
I'm not moving the goalposts - I'm showing you the ridiculousness of how the whole "trademark every single word" thing really is.
By bulldog's own statements, some of the words were trademarked ["Tom Brown"] but the other wasn't [Tracker].
I know I probably confused you with my logic. it's ok, not everyone's meant to understand logic.
Sam Wilson
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Messages
- 3,066
Blah,blah,blah, you know where they are made right now, just say it. It's that simple, if you want to clear this up right now.
Sam Wilson
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Messages
- 3,066
I think that crystallizes the point of this whole thread (and all the others) probably the best of any post. This whole thing isnt really about the trademark issue (although that certainly is a contributing factor, if it took place), the tracker design (which many makers/manufacturers make, and doesnt bother me in the least), or any of the other smaller issues, as interesting as they may be.
To me, the whole thing is throughout all of these threads, on forums literally all over the U.S. and in England, nobody seems to believe these knives are made in England. No compelling evidence has yet been shown (other than CFK saying so) to prove anything. Many knifemakers and buyers have publicly stated that they dont believe they are made in England. It just doesnt add up, in my opinion and based on the preponderance of evidence that I have seen.
On top of that, CFK has continually failed to directly answer the question of exactly where they are produced. It is what it is. This is nothing personal for me, I just wanted the truth and felt like I wasnt getting it when being told theyre made in England. I could certainly be wrong. I have bought raw materials and manufactured goods in England, and without exception it was more expensive than if I had been able to get it here.
We can dance around this forever, but if CFK wants to clear it up, post some proof. Otherwise, its pretty clear. Based on your Facebook location CFK, you are a very short drive away from me. I could always swing by, with your permission and invitation of course, and you could show me proof in person. Simply an offer.
Otherwise, just about everything I have to say has been said, and my mind is made up, barring any further evidence. Best of luck.
Sam Wilson
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,206
Rather than spend all your time explaining who does NOT make your knives, you might say who DOES make them.
We may have to go to WikiLeaks.
We may have to go to WikiLeaks.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2015
- Messages
- 7
In another life, during the early 1980's, I worked for an American shoe manufacturer in Tennessee. They were effective during the early 1960's selling women's comfort shoes. By 1982, we were buying leather uppers made in Taiwan, known then as a place producing "cheap knock-offs", and putting the soles, cementing them to the uppers, only a fraction of the steps necessary to manufacture the shoe, boxing them up, selling them as "Made in the USA". Hoodinkery? Nope, fair, square and completely legal. Some forms of that technique exist today for products for which nominal efforts go into the production of the final product.
Also, it is useful to not associate a knock-off as the same as stealing someone's brand, the look, and counterfeiting it as an original.
Also, it is useful to not associate a knock-off as the same as stealing someone's brand, the look, and counterfeiting it as an original.
Wouldn't it be more transparent for you to provide the information Last_Ditch mentioned in the original post. The only reason I see for you not doing so is if the information false or you have something to cover up or hide.
On another note doesn't it strike anyone rather odd Last_Ditch started this thread and has never returned with any input?
Last edited:
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,206
You might want to check. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...7a3f79e280534d8be&node=19:1.0.1.1.13&rgn=div5 Labeling a product "made in USA" or the functional equivalent, like "U.S.A.", has requirements these days. In contrast are labels like "assembled in U.S.A." or "x% made of U.S. components."
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2007
- Messages
- 7,743
I don't think the comparison between whatever you guys are arguing about (it's clear we don't know) and the Hitachi steel that njsb sells is valid. Blue #2 is a premium steel that appeared stateside with fanfare. Discerning customers are likely to pay a premium for a kitchen knife made in the steel.
I've got no dog in this fight but the comparison makes no sense. It's like saying that someone who prefers to buy American vehicles is just as likely to turn their nose up to a Ferrari as a Yugo. Ain't happening.
I've got no dog in this fight but the comparison makes no sense. It's like saying that someone who prefers to buy American vehicles is just as likely to turn their nose up to a Ferrari as a Yugo. Ain't happening.
Just giving it the eyeball on E-bay, seems like the majority of the knives are selling in the $50 - 60 range. Now we are to believe that this mysterious start up can afford to sell a good majority of their knives at that price, and afford the tooling for multiple patterns (in a variety of handle materials 
), steel costs (again multiple varieties), leather for sheathes, English labour costs, and all the associated import/export fees without a secret catch ?
Really?
Also this argument that "it's way better, and doesn't perform like Pakistani xyz" is neither here nor there because the majority of Pakistani knives sold through wholesalers in the US usually are in the <$5 range and then are resold in the $7 - 15 or so by a retailer. So the the average cost to produce the knife in Pakistan is probably a buck or so.
If one is wiling to pay the Pakistani makers exponentially more for their work at the start, they'll get much a much better product. This has been proven by multiple cutlery importers through the years in other countries (Spyderco in Taiwan, Cold Steel in China, etc....).
The only way I'd believe that the majority of the handy work these isn't Pakistani, actually taking place in Pakistan, would be a full factory walk through from the outside street level.
), steel costs (again multiple varieties), leather for sheathes, English labour costs, and all the associated import/export fees without a secret catch ?Really?
Also this argument that "it's way better, and doesn't perform like Pakistani xyz" is neither here nor there because the majority of Pakistani knives sold through wholesalers in the US usually are in the <$5 range and then are resold in the $7 - 15 or so by a retailer. So the the average cost to produce the knife in Pakistan is probably a buck or so.
If one is wiling to pay the Pakistani makers exponentially more for their work at the start, they'll get much a much better product. This has been proven by multiple cutlery importers through the years in other countries (Spyderco in Taiwan, Cold Steel in China, etc....).
The only way I'd believe that the majority of the handy work these isn't Pakistani, actually taking place in Pakistan, would be a full factory walk through from the outside street level.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,206
How? Tim Noble or Perkin Knives apparently know how.
Sam Wilson
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Messages
- 3,066
Yeah, where is old Last_Ditch???
Wow, Tim Noble/Sweet James, that brings back some memories...
crufflers
Gold Member
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2015
- Messages
- 2,304
Speaking as someone who is interested in these knives (CFK and iPak), and owning a few myself... I would guess they are made in Pakistan, and maybe some have handles installed here, maybe not. Maybe even some finishing work done here. As someone who has followed this company since I spotted these knives on Ebay, the stories are fishy. As others have stated, they may be good quality bargains, but cut the BS.
I like the pieces I have, but I would like them more if I knew for sure where they come from. Certain knives like the D2 line with micarta and especially the CFK branded bowies are pretty sweet knives. The iPak line is definitely rougher, but they still have some appeal. Anyone else think that the name "iPAK" might just come from "PAK" istan? It makes sense to me.
Some of the file work, pins, and embellishments especially on the Damascus and more artsy looking pieces definitely look like other Pakistani knives I have seen. I can post pics of mine, but I don't have any of the fancy stuff.
I like the pieces I have, but I would like them more if I knew for sure where they come from. Certain knives like the D2 line with micarta and especially the CFK branded bowies are pretty sweet knives. The iPak line is definitely rougher, but they still have some appeal. Anyone else think that the name "iPAK" might just come from "PAK" istan? It makes sense to me.
Some of the file work, pins, and embellishments especially on the Damascus and more artsy looking pieces definitely look like other Pakistani knives I have seen. I can post pics of mine, but I don't have any of the fancy stuff.
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2007
- Messages
- 7,743
Can someone with a D2 blade run a patina test? It should be fairly difficult, but not impossible to get a mustard patina on the steel.
Without an analyzer it's impossible to know the alloy for sure, but the first thing I'd do is compare the corrosion resistance to another knife I have in D2.
Without an analyzer it's impossible to know the alloy for sure, but the first thing I'd do is compare the corrosion resistance to another knife I have in D2.