Cheaper knives are punching above thier weight?

thatsaknife said:
I am referring specifically to Shrade SCHF42
Seems like alot of knife for 50 US dollars.
I like the non tactical leather sheath.
In a perfect world it would be made in the country that sells it but for quality of manufacturing Taiwan has some of the best ISO 9000-9001 manufacturing facilities so one really cannot argue over quality can they?
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I have one here now that I will be testing over the next week.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
That's basically what the law of diminishing returns is. You must spend more and more money for more and more minor (practical) improvements.
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In my example spending more is not an improvement. Paying more for exotic materials in most cases diminishes the actual usability of a knife. In most cases more durable less expensive materials perform better. The returns I'm looking for are in use returns. you don't need to pay more for returns, in that case there is no diminishing. You paid for less in use performance on purpose for delicate tolerances and materials.
 
Boris74 said:
In my example spending more is not an improvement. Paying more for exotic materials in most cases diminishes the actual usability of a knife. In most cases more durable less expensive materials perform better. The returns I'm looking for are in use returns. you don't need to pay more for returns, in that case there is no diminishing. You paid for less in use performance on purpose for delicate tolerances and materials.
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Your example wasn't very realistic though. In general, most of us are paying more for superior, albeit minimally so, materials.
 
bpeezer said:
Your example wasn't very realistic though. In general, most of us are paying more for superior, albeit minimally so, materials.
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I've broken scales that cost much more than TPE while using them. Pretty realistic for me. I've also made one oopsie with my TPE scaled user and I watched it bow out and pop right back to shape with a whole lot of character added when I was done. Other than being chewed up a bit they are still the same shape they were when new. The returns are much greater form the less expensive TPE slabs.

So sometimes you pay more for less. Diminishing returns is not always based on dollars spent, unless you mostly admire fit and finish with more costly materials more than wearing out the edge.
 
Boris74 said:
In my example spending more is not an improvement. Paying more for exotic materials in most cases diminishes the actual usability of a knife. In most cases more durable less expensive materials perform better. The returns I'm looking for are in use returns. you don't need to pay more for returns, in that case there is no diminishing. You paid for less in use performance on purpose for delicate tolerances and materials.
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Depends on what materials you pay for. If you pay $50 for a knife made from 1095 and I pay $100 for a blade made from CPM-3V I'm paying twice as much, but getting a knife that will be much tougher, hold an edge far longer and resist corrosion much better. However, to improve on that I have to start putting down much more money for much smaller improvements.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Depends on what materials you pay for. If you pay $50 for a knife made from 1095 and I pay $100 for a blade made from CPM-3V I'm paying twice as much, but getting a knife that will be much tougher, hold an edge far longer and resist corrosion much better. However, to improve on that I have to start putting down much more money for much smaller improvements.
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Great examples, but like my other examples the returns on the other side aren't worth it in the field away from fancy sharpening systems. Can you fix the edge on a flat stone fetched from the creek? Can the edge be straightened on the spine of another knife? (Haven't had rolling or burr problems on my large blades but the puukkos will sometimes). In the woods it will be a diminishing return to use such a steel. Yup, it holds its edge longer, but all knives get dull from the first stroke, so it is important for some. What might be seen as a positive feature to you is a diminished performance factor for me. Two weeks at deer camp and not being at the sharpening bench with specialized equipment is not the time to figure out you can't put a working edge back on in the woods after dressing a few game animals after days of other use before that. I don't see the actual in use worth, even if it were the same price, blade, brand, geometry, I will take the 1095.

I'm looking for different kinds of returns and the ones I'm looking for just happen to cost less. If 1095 cost 2x what 3V does then I'd pay 2x as much.
 
Boris74 said:
Great examples, but like my other examples the returns on the other side aren't worth it in the field away from fancy sharpening systems. Can you fix the edge on a flat stone fetched from the creek? Can the edge be straightened on the spine of another knife? (Haven't had rolling or burr problems on my large blades but the puukkos will sometimes). In the woods it will be a diminishing return to use such a steel. Yup, it holds its edge longer, but all knives get dull from the first stroke, so it is important for some. What might be seen as a positive feature to you is a diminished performance factor for me. Two weeks at deer camp and not being at the sharpening bench with specialized equipment is not the time to figure out you can't put a working edge back on in the woods after dressing a few game animals after days of other use before that. I don't see the actual in use worth, even if it were the same price, blade, brand, geometry, I will take the 1095.

I'm looking for different kinds of returns and the ones I'm looking for just happen to cost less. If 1095 cost 2x what 3V does then I'd pay 2x as much.
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I can quite easily keep 3V sharp for 2 weeks by stropping on an unloaded leather belt. If there's damage, I carry diamond cards in my wallet that will cut it quite easily. In short, I can put a working edge back on it anywhere short of the moon or bottom of the sea. Also, one of the major benefits of a steel like 3V is that you can have significantly better cutting geometry without any greater risk of the edge chipping or rolling.
 
Boris74 said:
I've broken scales that cost much more than TPE while using them. Pretty realistic for me. I've also made one oopsie with my TPE scaled user and I watched it bow out and pop right back to shape with a whole lot of character added when I was done. Other than being chewed up a bit they are still the same shape they were when new. The returns are much greater form the less expensive TPE slabs.

So sometimes you pay more for less. Diminishing returns is not always based on dollars spent, unless you mostly admire fit and finish with more costly materials more than wearing out the edge.
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Just because something costs more doesn't make it better. However, normally you can get something better for more money. The onus is on the consumer to decide what "better" is. In your case it sounds like the more expensive knives you bought were not, in fact, better. That doesn't mean that better knives can't be had for more money. It just means, in the words of the illustrious guardian of the grail, that:

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Meanwhile there are many cheap knives that are absolute garbage. Value is about more than price alone. As I like to say, the prudent spendthrift knows not to buy the cheapest brand of sausages. :D
 
Insipid Moniker said:
I can quite easily keep 3V sharp for 2 weeks by stropping on an unloaded leather belt. If there's damage, I carry diamond cards in my wallet that will cut it quite easily. In short, I can put a working edge back on it anywhere short of the moon or bottom of the sea. Also, one of the major benefits of a steel like 3V is that you can have significantly better cutting geometry without any greater risk of the edge chipping or rolling.
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All I'm getting from any of this is I will really love 3V if I ever get around to using it lol. Thanks for the feed back. The only people I know who have it refuse to beat on it because they paid so much for it. Don't make sense to me but that's how they roll and they won't let me near it.

I just got back from a short hike out to our spot on the river out back and my son thoroughly tested his brand new SCHF36. I can honestly say I know now why it won people's choice award. Anyone who has a blade too nice to use and wants something to beat on relentlessly, get the SCHF36. I like it better than my Ontario Falcon, and I like that blade a lot! I'll put up some pics after I get them on my photo site.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I was actually The fact is, much of what people pay for in expensive knives are prestige features, like fancy materials or decorative machined elements, special cosmetic finishes, and tolerances tighter than realistically necessary (nice to have, yes, but not necessary) which all increase the "deluxe factor" of the tool and allows the manufacturer to ask a higher price for their wares. The truth is that a lot of the manufacturers of the inexpensive knives that wow people with their bang-for-the-buck performance could probably be asking at least a little more for them than they currently do, but they either don't realize it or else have reason to believe that they'll maximize profits best through sales volume rather than selling a little lower quantity at higher pricing.
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You also oftentimes (always) are paying more in the way of labor too; $2 an hour for Chinese factory workers to mass produce factory Knives 12 hours a day vs. what a custom U.S. knife maker is charging per hour for his time hand crafting a knife, or even a U.S. factory worker producing Knives at minimum wage, (which I'm certain they make more, but for arguments sake), factoring in shipping costs and what-have-you, that same knife would cost roughly twice as much when it hit shelves. Which seems about right when you compare something like a $12 aluminum frame 3" Schrade next to a $20 plastic handled 3" Buck Bantam....
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Meanwhile there are many cheap knives that are absolute garbage. Value is about more than price alone. As I like to say, the prudent spendthrift knows not to buy the cheapest brand of sausages. :D
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That is something often lost sight of by some who buy more pricy knives. There are huge differences in middle and even bottom shelf knives. Many use the knowledge garnered here to get pretty good knives for the money.
 
Vintage Ulster Schrade. I bought these for 15$ apiece or less in the last year or so.

Peanut, small stockman, serpentine pen. Made in the old Ellenville, NY plant ~50 years ago.

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A bigbox near here (near you too) was selling the Victorinox Recruit for $12 a couple of years ago. A lot of value there.

Vic%2520SAK%2520Recruit.jpg
 
There are many inexpensive knives, cheap is probably a better word, that are trash. They cut. But they bring no joy. The Kabar Dozier folding hunter is one that is just a step above and a pretty useful knife. I just have too many to really use it much regardless of the price. I do like the Cold Steel Tuff Lite which is about as small a knife as I am willing to carry that I might actually use.

Boris is a big fan of the newer Schrade fixed blades (1095 steel versions especially). I may in fact purchase one just to try out. Have no need for it, and barely want one. I purchased the Kabar BK-2 because of all the recommendations on BF. Liked the feel of it, but from a practical knife, I'll never carry it.
 
strategy9 said:
You also oftentimes (always) are paying more in the way of labor too; $2 an hour for Chinese factory workers to mass produce factory Knives 12 hours a day vs. what a custom U.S. knife maker is charging per hour for his time hand crafting a knife, or even a U.S. factory worker producing Knives at minimum wage, (which I'm certain they make more, but for arguments sake), factoring in shipping costs and what-have-you, that same knife would cost roughly twice as much when it hit shelves. Which seems about right when you compare something like a $12 aluminum frame 3" Schrade next to a $20 plastic handled 3" Buck Bantam....
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The Bantams are produced using a mix of USA and foreign components, interestingly. But it's possible to design the labor out of knife designs and/or increase the use of automation if producing in sufficient scale for it to be feasible. This is how Mora is able to produce such inexpensive knives despite their country of origin--they're masters of cost reduction. Opinels, for instance, are about the same price as that Schrade you referenced, and have quality build and materials but accomplish their goal through a combination of simple design and volume production.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
The Bantams are produced using a mix of USA and foreign components, interestingly. But it's possible to design the labor out of knife designs and/or increase the use of automation if producing in sufficient scale for it to be feasible. This is how Mora is able to produce such inexpensive knives despite their country of origin--they're masters of cost reduction. Opinels, for instance, are about the same price as that Schrade you referenced, and have quality build and materials but accomplish their goal through a combination of simple design and volume production.
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Victorinox is the master of automation and the number one producer of folding knives in the world as I understand it. The 2x factor feels about right in strategy9's comment. Those Chinese workers may only make a couple of bucks an hour, but it is a supply and demand thing. Same thing happened in Japan after WWII (with US assistance). Now those same workers earn a lot more than $2 an hour..... the point is, the Chinese worker day will come. It is just a matter of time and production will shift to some other country with lower labor costs. Just look at Mexico's auto industry vs the US version.... auto manufacturers are flourishing in Mexico due to a combination of low labor rates, trainable people, and good work ethic. In the US, there is too much of an entitlement perception with younger workers now. It always amazed me about US auto workers; they make $20+ per hour and yet they complain.
 
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