Cheapest and simplest Blade for Survival?

[Moine]

Hi Cliff,

True, some people think it's cool to look native. I call them wannabees. They don't think that because of functionality, they wannabe natives because they're bored to death in this empty, void, safe world. They think natives have found a way to preserve a deeper meaning to their lives, and they want that for themselves, too. But whether you're white, red, or brown or black or electric blue you have to PUT meaning into your life... not find it passively.

Now natives, on the other hand, tend to try and look like they climb up the social ladder. Wearing overpriced shoes made in third-world countries seems to be a good way to mimic white behavior and "fit in", maybe. Or are they identifying themselves to black basketball stars and rappers ? I don't know. But marketing is telling them they'll get big cars, nice chicks and huge paychecks if they wear Nikes. Truth is Nike & al. sucks up a good part of the little money they have... and they give it to them freely. That's yet another reason why I go barefeet all the time

Being in between of those two worlds, I shake my head at both extremes, and tend to orient my actions and choice towards beneficial functionality. We were talking about a blade for survival... right ? This principles also applies.

Granted, a better blade steel can allow you a better geometry and edge retention. My point was just that cheap steel, spring tempered, dulls fast but never breaks, which makes it valid in my book for survival use.

Of course, my Valiant Potong holds an edge much better and is a better blade than my tramontina machete. It cuts better, works better, looks better, carries better and handles better. But for a survival situation I'd pick the machete first, as the handle is indestructible and I'll never break the machete in half as it's low on the RC scale, and thus very resilient even though it's a cheap blade.

I'm not saying cheap, low RC knives work better than high end ones. They don't. But don't spit on low RC blades as far as toughness is concerned

Cheers,

David

 

[Cliff Stamp]

My point was just that cheap steel, spring tempered, dulls fast but never breaks, which makes it valid in my book for survival use.

Yes, that is fairly high on my list of criteria for that type of knife. It is unfortunate though that toughness has become equated with softness, this is only due to the use of steels which get brittle at high hardness levels, like most stainless grades and tool steels like D2 which are not meant for impact.

Lots of steels however have maximum toughness levels close to 60 HRC and can be both very strong and very tough. They are often actually cheaper than the steels currently used. But yeah, I would rather use a 12" Barteaux machete than many 60 HRC survival knives.

That being said, I would not mind spending a day or two in the woods with this :

http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rmartin82.htm

-Cliff

 

[pict]

"That being said, I would not mind spending a day or two in the woods..."

Cliff, I think that pretty much says it. I personally am spending WAY too much time tied to a desk and my normal responsibilities of life. It's all happening "out there". Rainy season's breaking up, the mountains are full of water...

I don't need another knife, I need mor etime with the ones I've got. Mac

 

[Cliff Stamp]

What amuses me is that I only have to go back 2-3 generations to find my relatives who settled this land, cleared the woods into farmland and by farming and fishing, put their kids through school so they didn't have to do that work, and now we work to be able to do the same tasks on a recreational business. As soon as the chainsaw was introduced locally, everyone who used an axe for survival quickly left it at home. A few years back I started using an axe again for felling/limbing and this year I even used it for the majority of the bucking. My grandfather would likely be very amused and would wonder why I didn't just use the chainsaw and have the same work done about ten times as fast and could then get inside out of the snow and rain. That is after all why they built houses in the first place, and quickly installed running water and left the outhouses behind.

-Cliff

 

[ranger88]

you get what you pay for, but you can also pay too much for what you get when something cheaper might work just as well. I always look for good cheap blades. go to flea markets and gun shows. lots of deals there sometimes. I picked up an Ozark Trails 9 inch camp knife for 9.97 at my local china mart. (that's walmart by the way) I wouldn't be afraid to take it into the sticks. If anything, it's so light that it easily slip into a boot, or pack as a backup.

 

[Stickbait]

Read about it in several survival/outdoor books and it makes sense.Plain edge side sharpens well into blade and the saw-tooth side cuts well as a small wood/bone saw and duct or electrical tape is used for a wrapped handle.:thumbup:

 

[Moine]

Yes, that is fairly high on my list of criteria for that type of knife. It is unfortunate though that toughness has become equated with softness, this is only due to the use of steels which get brittle at high hardness levels, like most stainless grades and tool steels like D2 which are not meant for impact.

Guilty

High hardness does equals brittleness in my book.

Lots of steels however have maximum toughness levels close to 60 HRC and can be both very strong and very tough.

Which are ?

That being said, I would not mind spending a day or two in the woods with this :

http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rmartin82.htm

I wouldn't mind either, but my girlfriend could easily kill me if I did that

Cheers,

David

 

[Moine]

As soon as the chainsaw was introduced locally, everyone who used an axe for survival quickly left it at home.

True. And now, as everyone forgot how to sharpen an axe, the mere idea of using an axe for woodcutting seems just ridiculous. I too cut my wood "by fair means". I cut the trees down, buck em, and split them by hand.

Of course, I could do that 10 times faster, but that would mean I'd have to stay 10 times longer in front of the TV and get fat and bored like those chaisaw guys

No thanks. Besides when we'll have no more oil, I'll still have my axe, my swede saw and my splitting maul

Cheers,

David

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Which are ?

Most tool steels designed for shock operate at or near 60 HRC, as to go much softer leads to weakness and thus even though you don't get cracks you get deformation, the high A series for example and the shock steels.

I cut the trees down, buck em, and split them by hand.

I even pulled them out with a horse a few years back, usually use a truck though.

I'll still have my axe, my swede saw and my splitting maul...

Saw's are a real weak point, I don't sharpen them well, they last for a long time and are so cheap that the few people who do use them (not many) just replace them. Can't stand that waste though and need to spend more time saw filing. I'd really like to run one of Gaston Duperre's custom swede saw blades.

-Cliff

 

[Moine]

Most tool steels designed for shock operate at or near 60 HRC, as to go much softer leads to weakness and thus even though you don't get cracks you get deformation, the high A series for example and the shock steels.

And how do they resist abrasion ?

I even pulled them out with a horse a few years back, usually use a truck though

As I live in the mountains, I pull them down myself with a rope Oftentimes I use the rope to brake them more than to pull I admit

Saw's are a real weak point, I don't sharpen them well, they last for a long time and are so cheap that the few people who do use them (not many) just replace them. Can't stand that waste though and need to spend more time saw filing.

It's extremely long to do. And you need to realign those teeth very precisely if you want the whole thing to work. But it's feasable. Re-read Mors Kochansky chapter on saws in Bushcraft. Very comprehensive explanations in there.

Cheers,

David

 

[RokJok]

...you need to realign those teeth very precisely if you want the whole thing to work.

There are a few sawsets on eBay. Plus they are available on some of the vintage tool sites.

Some of the info in the handsaw filing tutorial from Bob Smalser linked below may illuminate the process for neophytes, including me.
http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Smalser_on_SharpeningHandsaws.htm

 

[Cliff Stamp]

And how do they resist abrasion ?

Low, but they work better than underhardening unsuitable steels in general for heavier wood, and wood in general isn't very abrasive.

I pull them down myself with a rope ...

I thought I was basic, what type and size of wood?

Re-read Mors Kochansky chapter on saws in Bushcraft.

I can do it and have done it, including a full jointing, not just a few swipes with a file, however I rarely do and have a number of used ones which I really should fix though I have also been considering just making them into knives.

Most carpenters don't actually sharpen wood saws anymore, they tend to use ones with impulse hardened teeth plus very little sawing is done with hand tools anymore. Similar with sharpening knives just a lot more lost, few even sharpen chisels anymore.

-Cliff

 

[Moine]

I thought I was basic, what type and size of wood?

Obviously not huge trees. Mostly standing dead oaks that can't pierce through the pines and die on they way up (great fuel, very little limbing to do, and just perfect a size for pulling down and bucking with a saw) : about up to 6-8 inches diameter. The weight/effort/heat ratio on these is just the best, plus they produce little or no smoke and do not clog up the chimney at all. I let the live trees alone, especially when they're oaks.

I also cut some standing dead pines (even though they clog up the chimney fast, they're great for lighting up the stove, plus they're full of fatwood for fire lighting and many other uses). Being quite straight and quite low density when dry, I can pull down those about up to 8 to 10 inches diameter. But they're a pain to split, let alone buck (dry pine is harder than you'd think).

I've met some standing dead ashes, beeches and other wood types, but they're not the ones I actively look for. Beeches tend to get huge around here (often over 2 feet in diameter).

Cheers,

David

 

[Cliff Stamp]

That is the same size I generally cut, I go up to 12-14 on the pine as it is feather light when it dries, but on spruce and the denser wood, 10" and up is simply too heavy to carry, but locally it is all small wood anyway.

I was chopping some seasoned pine recently, like cardboard on the outside, punky, no problem to drive the GB wildlife right to the handle. Then in the center all I heard was "clink". I though it was spiked, but no, it was just rock hard.

I had to slow way down or risk leaving most of the bit in the wood, only the very center of about 2" was that hard though so no worries. Do you use a saw for felling at all or just the axe?

-Cliff

 

[Moine]

Do you use a saw for felling at all or just the axe?

I don't use the saw much for felling, for many reasons :

1) I hate being bent over like that, but that's just me : my back and hamstrings hurt after only a few minutes, besides the movement (at arms length) is far from optimal biomechanically speaking ;
2) Being bent over, I can't see the top of the tree start to wobble more and more when it's almost done, so I find it risky ;
3) On dead pines, you often get dead branches or even the whole top falling when you work on it. Being bent over you don't see them coming at all. Standing, you can at least see them coming with your peripheral vision and hope to protect yourself a little more... no garantees but still a better chance... (felling trees is dangerous, duh)
4) I like working with an axe : power and precision. Hitting exactly the right spot, at the right angle, seeing the axe bite deep into the wood and remove bug chunks of wood. I just love that. That's no argument I know... but I don't give a... I just love that.
5) Last but not least, on the undercut the blade often gets pinched so hard I need a wedge to remove it, so it's not much faster anyways...

I've found an old forged axe head in an open market over here. Got it for one euro. It was dull and rusty, but it's great, great steel (carbon steel of course, i'd say around 57+ HRC) and the geometry is just perfect for felling. It's pretty heavy and extremely thin. I buffed it a bit and gave it a wiiiiide and ultra-thin convex bevel. Add to that a long, straight grained ash handle and you're in business. Just turning the hips and shoulders, and snapping that axe into a tree without any need to muscle it, it bites 3-4 inches into hard, dry oak. I love it

I've won contests against chainsaws, no kidding

Ok, ok, they were small and dull -- LOL

The only times I use a saw for felling is when I don't have enough room to work the axe efficiently. Under such conditions, I should not fell the tree at all.

Cheers,

David

 

[HK2001]

You can buy a good 14" Tramontina here in central Florida for $4 at one of the local flea markets.. I've bought several and one resides in every room of the house, and each of our vehicles.. cheap security..
In the same flea market, you can pick up a Mora for $3 .. That's all you need

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I rarely, if ever, use them for the back cut to actually bring the tree down, the wood simply isn't that large here. I mainly use them on occasion on a large piece of hardwood to open up the front notch, especially on a piece of wood which has bad knots. The main reason I do it is to spread out the physical load, plus it gives me the chance to recover from the last session of chopping and in that way I can work the entire day without having to break, even when cutting through 8-10" spruce, I rarely bother with fresh pine and the softer woods.

-Cliff

 

[Jim Craig]

Mors KOCHANSKI uses, and advocates the use of, cheap carbon steel mora knives, and they can be found for less than $5, if you look hard enough. Buy two and carry one around your neck as Mors does, and one on your belt. $10, two knives, and unparallelled woodworking ability with the "Scandi" grind. Plus they are super light.
Yes they are a stick tang blade, and some may tell you they are too weak, but I have used one extensively, as have many, many others without problems. They will not stand up to chin-ups, or splitting 6" logs, but they will do all that you need in a survival situation. There is no better edge geometry out there for cutting notches for shelter poles, making traps, etc., plus with the right skills, you can cut up all the firewood you will need. Or carve a spoon, pot, make cordage, etc. Pick up a copy of his book Bushcraft as well, if you don't have it, and with some practice, you'll be fine. Or better.

Hope this helps you find an answer to your question.

Jim

 

[Cliff Stamp]

[scandinavian bevels]

There is no better edge geometry out there for cutting notches for shelter poles, making traps, etc. ...

Full primary ground blades with efficient edge profile are far more effective cutting tools, especially in carving hardwoods as the single v-ground bevel is prone to overloading of the edge due to the way forces are distributed across it. Considering that forces on an edge are not uniform in extent in height it makes sense to alter the edge angle from the edge to the spine. There are really cheap knives which such geometries, an Opinel for example. These blades are also far easier to sharpen, and are far stronger at the same weight than the single bevel grind.

Typical scandinavian bevels are 10/12 degrees per side and 0.125" thick at back of edge, thie edge angle isn't necesary for wood working, unless you are doing rougher work, twisting the blade in the wood, working around knots, etc., such as Mears does with his in the Bushcarft series. If you are just cutting with the knife you can cut that edge angle in half on a decent steel. The edge thickness is also way overkill, even heavy tacticals are a third of that thickness and for a simple wood cutting knife it is ten times as thick as it needs to be which also means there is ten times as much steel to sharpen.

-Cliff

 

[Horse]

So wait Cliff- let me make sure i understand you- Scandis are too steep edged and hard to sharpen. Poor wood cutting geometry. Correct so far?

An Opinel is a stronger blade than a Mora. Am I still OK? I just wanna make sure I read you correctly.