Cheapest and simplest Blade for Survival?

[Minuteman]

Cliff, I seem to remember you sharpening a piece of cold rolled steel, or something similar, a few years back and doing some tests. As I recall, it performed pretty well. Probably a better knife than people (who really needed one) had for thousands of years. None the less, we always want something better if we can get it.

I'm a practical guy -- I do a few simple tests to see how well I like a new blade. I can make up my mind in a few minutes. Incidently, I find VERY few knives that have an initial edge geometry anywhere NEAR what I expect and I almost ALWAYS use my belt grinder to put a thin rolled edge on before I even start. Then, here's what I look for:

(1) How easy is it to sharpen to a shaving edge?
(2) How easily can I chop off a 2x4 with it?
(3) Do I like the way it "feels" when I chop with it?
(4) Will it still shave in the blade area where I chopped off 1-2 2x4s?
(5) Does it chip or roll on knots? (Roll I can live with, chip I can not!)
(6) How easy is it to bring back to sharp once it is dull?
(7) Can I shave nice curlers off a 2x4 with it when it is sharp?
(8) Will it cut a thin slice of tomato, onion, cooked meat, or hard cheese?

If it can do all eight of these things well, then I consider it to be a great knife and useful for many purposes. It's absolutely amazing how few can -- no matter the price!!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, I made a knife out of a piece of tension bar from a chain link fence, it was an experiment to show mainly how geometry and edge finish were very critical to performance. That knife could easily out cut and had better edge retention than knife with far superior steels with far less optimal edge geometry.

I have a similar list, the exact tasks change a little from knife to knife, on the larger ones I want them to be able to take accidental impacts well, not blow a huge hole out of the blade if I cut through some brush and hit a rock and I also want them to be strong enough for prying in woods, no annealed spines. For the small blades I like very strong edge retention in abrasive materials.

-Cliff

 

[Minuteman]

That knife could easily out cut and had better edge retention than knife with far superior steels with far less optimal edge geometry.

I consider the current state of production edge geometry to be a failure across most of the knife industry. It's like they don't even understand how their own products work. Or they are so concerned that there never be any apparent damage that they just make the edges 2x (or more) as thick as they need to be.

Even my Swamp Rats, which have better steel than 99% of the knives out there all came sharpened like cold chisels. If I can remove half the material there and still have a bullet proof working edge, then they are being WAY too conservative. And all that unneeded material just creates a lower performing product.

This is one area where I give Marbles credit. They aren't afraid to thin their blades out properly.

I want them to be able to take accidental impacts well, not blow a huge hole out of the blade if I cut through some brush and hit a rock

No matter how much you love your knife or try to take care of it, if you cut wood with it in the real world, eventually it will make contact with the Earth! Not a good thing for the last few inches of your edge. Even just bare soil with no rocks tends to do a number on it. And you are right -- a knife needs to be able to deal with that because it WILL happen!

 

[frank k]

I'm a practical guy -- I do a few simple tests to see how well I like a new blade. I can make up my mind in a few minutes. Incidently, I find VERY few knives that have an initial edge geometry anywhere NEAR what I expect and I almost ALWAYS use my belt grinder to put a thin rolled edge on before I even start. Then, here's what I look for:

(1) How easy is it to sharpen to a shaving edge?
(2) How easily can I chop off a 2x4 with it?
(3) Do I like the way it "feels" when I chop with it?
(4) Will it still shave in the blade area where I chopped off 1-2 2x4s?
(5) Does it chip or roll on knots? (Roll I can live with, chip I can not!)
(6) How easy is it to bring back to sharp once it is dull?
(7) Can I shave nice curlers off a 2x4 with it when it is sharp?
(8) Will it cut a thin slice of tomato, onion, cooked meat, or hard cheese?

If it can do all eight of these things well, then I consider it to be a great knife and useful for many purposes. It's absolutely amazing how few can -- no matter the price!!

MM I’m curious. Which factory knives did you find that would do these things without major modifications (other than sharpening)?

Thanks.



- Frank

 

[sodak]

Frank K

Dozier, Swamp Rat, Busse, Cold Steel (in Carbon V), Beckers will all perform the above tasks. Even with thinned out edges - which is usually my first task when I get a knife...

Minuteman

Check out Doziers and Fehrman. They both come with nice edges, not too thick. Both the 3V and D2 have some good edge holding also...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I consider the current state of production edge geometry to be a failure across most of the knife industry. It's like they don't even understand how their own products work.

It is the tactical influence mainly, and the result of using stainless and other high alloy steels on blades which are really unsuitable which lead to edge thickening.

[Swamp Rat]

If I can remove half the material there and still have a bullet proof working edge, then they are being WAY too conservative. And all that unneeded material just creates a lower performing product.

The Ratweiler I recieved awhile ago is about 0.035" by 20 degrees per side. It is difficult to go much under this and not limit serious wood working, if you dip under 0.030" you start to risk rippling on heavy batoning, if you go much under 15 degrees per side the edge can turn on harder knots with larger blades.

The Extreme Judgement I had for example had a thinner and more acute edge than the Ratweiler, not a lot (spec's are in the review), but enough so that the edge turned on batoning through some difficult wood and the damage went up into the primary grind and the knife essentially wrote off.

Swamp Rat does customize edges to user requests, so if your skill is high enough, or you don't intend to do the heavier work, then you can get a thinner and more acute edge. They also have a large "tactical" user base and their edges are actually thin and acute in general for that class.

No matter how much you love your knife or try to take care of it, if you cut wood with it in the real world, eventually it will make contact with the Earth! Not a good thing for the last few inches of your edge. Even just bare soil with no rocks tends to do a number on it. And you are right -- a knife needs to be able to deal with that because it WILL happen!

Yes, even bark is pretty dirty, it wasn't uncommon for tree fellers to actually carry another axe to cut through low lying woods, branches, roots and bark to clear out the way for the dedicated falling axe to cut through the main wood. However most people carrying knives are not going to do the same thing and in general most people are not going to be as careful working around brush, it just takes too long so sweep out every stick, and even then you have over hits due to bad wood, cracks, insects, etc. .

-Cliff

 

[hatchetjack]

Here's some interesting blades I found that cost very little and are very strong.

The first is a bolo I found at a flea market with wooden scabbard for 7 bucks. Full tang, 12" blade, pinned water buffalo handles.

The other one is from an Asian market that I was at last week. Also 7 bucks. I think it was from Thailand from the newspaper it was wrapped in. I've been chopping a stump with it and it shows no damage or wear.

I think they may be made from old leaf springs.

Best part was finding them and it stays in line with the "cheap" part of the topic.

 

[ranger88]

Getting down to just surviving I have seen $5 knives in the supermarket kitchen section that I would be happy to have in a survival situation. Do you think you could make such a cheap knife to work for you?



I already have. It was an old hickory butchers knife. Dull it, sharpen it, dull it again. Absolutely a 5 dollar kitchen knife would work for me, as long as it's carbon steel.

 

[ranger88]

Here's some interesting blades I found that cost very little and are very strong.

The first is a bolo I found at a flea market with wooden scabbard for 7 bucks. Full tang, 12" blade, pinned water buffalo handles.

The other one is from an Asian market that I was at last week. Also 7 bucks. I think it was from Thailand from the newspaper it was wrapped in. I've been chopping a stump with it and it shows no damage or wear.

I think they may be made from old leaf springs.

Best part was finding them and it stays in line with the "cheap" part of the topic.

Those are some nice watermelon slicers you got there. Now I could work with something like that.