Cheapest and simplest Blade for Survival?

ghost squire said:
I understand now. When I saw Ray Mears pry apart a log with his knife for the first time it gave me a start!
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They are not focused light cutting tools though they get promoted this way by some. I was impressed with them with I first handled them years back, but that is quickly replaced once you see what someone can do with use of proper primary grinds. The benefit of carrying something ground in that way as opposed to an knife designed just to cut well is that the thicker blade can take more strain. If you were as rough with one of Alvin's blades as Mear's was with his woodcraft blade it would leave Alvin's in pieces.

This is of course the same arguement that Skammer makes in preference for his type of knife, he just sets a different breakpoint for toughness. If having to chose between one of Alvin's O1 utility knives, or Mora 2000 or Howling Rat for wilderness survival, he would likely take the Howling Rat. Everyone is free of course to find the optimal level of strength/toughness for them and you would not expect it to be the same for everyone.

My brother is 6'4" and very physically capable should he and a 65 year old woman have the exact same choices of ideal "survival" gear for wood craft? You want to be able to make the most of your resources and your strength is an obvious one. There was a nice bit on this in one of the STIHL series when they interviewed Ryan, the axe selection, even for the same wood, cut the exact same way, changes dramatically from one guy to the next. In general the really strong and heavy guys run larger axes and heavier saws because they are more efficient with them as it suits thier resources. The lighter guys can't match that power so they make up with it in speed and thus change gear.

Now in general, outside of competition you don't actually chop/saw in that way because it is too dangerous, it is harder on the equipment and your fatigue rate is way to high. However the same general principles of gear selection hold. In regards to Mear's rougher work, it is done to save him time, he could do all of it by precision cutting, it is just much faster at times to twist and pry. Skammer simply prefers a greater cross section which gives more prying force and can thus do some things even faster, but other things not as well, it depends on your abilities and methods.

Does a knife really need to be that thick though?
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At the edge, no, not even close. It is insanely difficult to break an edge even 0.030" thick, and you won't do it by anything Mear's does. I have seen (as I have asked) fairly strong guys with no idea what they were doing split wood by batoning and just pile driving the knife through knots and the edge holds up fine. I wanted to see just what would be needed for a real survival situation by which I would take to include high stress, lots of exertion and improper methods. Few people in such situations remain calm, and having your survival tools so optimized that they would shatter if so used doesn't seem sensible to me.

Even if you are so skilled and clear headed that you never get overstressed and always use proper methods, does everyone around you. Do you really want to carry equipment that only you can use in a survival situation? Moving higher, the only reason to climb above 0.030" is for chisel cutting metals, which can be useful in some survival situations, probably more urban than wilderness. Justin's early RD knives for example had this class of edge because that was what he found was necessary for his "survival" uses in his rather extreme enviroment.

-Cliff
 
Another vote for the Frosts Mora as the cheapest reliable survival knife. I've never managed to brake one and I don't think a survival situation involves chores that would lead to that. If you need a pry bar just cut a large stick for leverage or digging or the like. Other than that I can't see how you could render this knife useless.
One aspect I find essential though is the knife construction - I'd say it's more important to have a full tang knife. The handle is more likely to break or be damaged than the steel so if you have a full tang blade you can easily improvise a handle or just wrap it in cloth.
Just my $0.02.

Cheers,
WoodsWalker
 
Most prying in wood working is not well done with another piece of wood because wood is much weaker than steel and thus needs a much heavier cross section, and you can't get a the strong while tapered edge which is found on wood working prybars, wrecking bars are usually much more heavily tapered as they often work in or around metals.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/CliffStamp/fiskars/hatchet/fiskars_log.jpg

That type of wood is very valuable in a survival situation for a number of reasons :

1) very light for its size and thus is easy to move around and thus has a very good effort/reward ratio
2) well seasoned and it easy ignited and burns well giving off lots of heat/light with little smoke
3) it can contain grubs/insects
4) the outer few inches are very dry and can be used for tinder, or insulation, bedding material, etc. .
5) in a rain those types of wood work well to shelter fires because they will soak up the rain rather than just have it run across them and into the fire
6) the loose bark comes off readily in large pieces and can be also used to shelter fires, roof a shelter, serve as tinder, etc.

If the knife is stout enough you can break them apart quickly by digging with the point and leveraging with the main body of the blade, this quickly allows the wood to be broken down. The same goes with cutting pitch wood in general, breaking apart stumps and similar to get at the patch which has collected. In the winter a stouter blade has its uses in digging through ice and prying apart frozen logs, or moving them off of the ground.

Yes you can do any of this by other means, the same goes for any knife use, you can do all of it without a knife, it just gets easier with knives with specific attributes. You take a decent large bowie (one made for wood working - not a tactical knife) and a Mora 2000 and run a range of activities and see which knife does it easier and in less time. In the above however the discussion about the scandinavian blades was mainly not about how they were not robust enough, but the opposite and that a pure wood working blade has a much more efficient geometry that uses a primary grind.

This in fact will give a knife which will cut better and be much stronger at the same time, see for example some of the extreme precision cutting done by the ABS guys with their blades, it is hard to argue thier knives don't cut well. For smaller blades focused on pure cutters, see knives made by Wilson. The common problems with scandinavian blades in regards to durability/breaking are bending the laminates as they are really weak, or breaking the handles through direct impacts :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3422201&postcount=7

In that link the Foster Fear's survival knife is being referenced against a Mora 2000, as Fear's version of a survival knife is *much* thicker through the main body to enable heavier prying and/or digging. This is a fairly common trend in survival work in general which is very distinct from Bushcraft which isn't about surviving in the outside it is about living there by choice. This isn't an uncommon perspective, Fallkniven for example extends the tang of thier knives to enable this type of use as the founder sees it as very valuable, he also sees main body strength very useful which is why the knives have very robust cross sections.

-Cliff
 
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I am a Mora fan but I now prefer a different knife. I took a Cold Steel True Flight Thrower and modified it. It is made of Carbon V steel. It does everything I want my knife to do and is as indestructible as a knife can be.

I filed the black coating off the sides of the blade and kept filing until it was almost down to a zero grind. Then I put a normal edge on it. I replaced the green para-cord with extra heavy duty red and black boot lace. I did the wrap so that there is no knot on the blade end of the handle. I then put a very small piece of friction tape on the bottom of the choil. I took the sheath's belt loop and folded it over and pop riveted it in place. Now the knife sits higher and it is very flat so my hand and arm do not catch or rub against it.

This knife is a perfect, flat ground, wedge. It splits wood and cuts so smoothly I can't believe it. It cuts paper and cardboard very smoothly. The weight of the blade makes some cutting tasks very smooth and easy. The tip of the blade is very strong. It goes from full thickness to the point at a steep angle.

You can't hurt this knife! There is no handle to damage. If the cord gets damaged you can wrap a new one. It is a great field knife because you don't have to worry about it getting scratched or dinged. I have been shaving thin wood strips with it for ferro rod tinder. That takes a lot of hard gripping. It feels good in the hand. You have to hold it so your thumb and first finger are on the choil.

It is a mean wood splitting and cutting machine!

It seems like great steel. Takes a very sharp edge. I use a Ragnar diamond plate to get a sharp edge and then I use a leather strop from Sportsman's Warehouse to get a polished edge. I can hold the knife and pull paper through it. I have whittled wood and it still cut paper smoothly. I'd rather have steel that is easy to sharpen than one that is super hard and then a pain in the butt to sharpen again. I haven't seen where 154CM holds an edge a lot longer than Carbon V. But it sure is a lot harder to get a paper cutting edge. It is not stainless so it does not stay petty. It is also good around the camp kitchen. There is no finger guard to get in the way of a cutting board. It slices tomatoes and bread easily. You can hold the top of the blade and use it for chopping vegetables.
 
Nicely done, Craig. I've been doing the same thing (albeit slowly, as I get around to it from other projects) with my CS thrower. Nice to see that I'm not the only one with a "frugal" eye when it comes to a practical, heavy duty knife.
 
RokJok,

I looked at that web site before I did the wrap. The knot on the end is not a problem for me. I put the cord through the bottom hole and then melted the the end and smashed it flat while it was soft. I held that end close to the hole at the blade end. Then I took the long/working end through the top hole and started wrapping. Every few wraps I took a screwdriver and pushed the looped cord tight. I ended with an overhand knot on the end. I used pliers to hold the knot and pulled hard on the cord. I then cut the cord short and melted the end. While that end was still soft I smashed and slid the knot on my workbench. Once it cooled and hardened I trimmed it a little.

Cliff,

I was using a new file I got from SEARS. It only took about half an hour. I then used a diamond hone to true up the sides and then used Emory cloth to polish the sides. I finished with 600 grit.

Another cool thing about this knife is if you hold it where the guard bumps are and tap the blade it has a wind chime sound that goes for some time. I got the boot laces at a local store called "The Hiking Shack". I feels secure when it is wet. The para cord that came with it gets slippery when wet. I tried some orange real parachute cord (7 strand from County Comm). It felt slimy when wet and turned a brownish color after a short time. The red and black is cool looking and easy to see on the ground. The piece of friction tape on the bottom of the choil lets me know which end has the edge and keeps my finger from slipping onto the edge. I would like to file some grooves in place of the friction tape but I am afraid of making a mess of it. I am also playing with the idea of filing out a bit of the blade just forward of the choil for ferro rod use. I need to watch while I am using the knife to see if I am using that part of the blade.

Thanks for the interest and feedback!
 
Cold_Steel_TFT.jpg


ghost squire said:
HOLY CRAP how soft are those thrower things then!? Or else you must have biceps like beesnests.
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Mine started like this one. See how the side of the blade starts close to the spine? Some pictures of True Flight Throwers have the side of the blade starting much lower, I think they must be a newer version. I would like to get two more with the same blade profile, as mine, for two of my sons. Carbon V® knives: Are rockwell hardened to Rc 59.
 
Really cool Mod there Craig_Phx!

Neat to see something thrown on the table besides Moras and Tramontinas.:D

I'm mildly curious how the Old Hickory and Green Rivers compare to the Moras though?

As far as my own cheapies, I've got a beat-up, dinged-up battered and abused Cold Steel Machete, a Cold Steel Bushman that I hate, a Frosts' Tri-Flexx, and a Mora Puukko with a 5'' blade. A couple other various Moras, and some file knives I've made, as well as some Lauri Puukko blades I've put a handles on. (they only costed $15.00 each)

I've got 'em scattered all over Hell and half of Georgia, but I usually have a blade within reach when I need one. All of them have proven more than capable.

I've got a dollar or so or so invested in the smaller one here:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/karieann69/my_photos It's treated me well, inspite of its crudeness.
 
dartanyon said:
Getting down to just surviving I have seen $5 knives in the supermarket kitchen section that I would be happy to have in a survival situation. Do you think you could make such a cheap knife to work for you?

This thread starts from a post I made referring to a cheap survival kit.
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I live in Indonesia, so yes, I do think that I could find $5 - or even less - knives that will work on survival situation. Goloks are generally very cheap here, and they are pretty tough. People use it for everything from farming, clearing bushes, make shelter, you name it...
 
Cliff Stamp said:
With better materials - because you can build a better blade. A tramontina bolo is one of my favorite rough wood working blades, but a much harder tool steel blade would be able to hold a much thinner edge profile and thus cut better for longer and be easier to sharpen.
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Cliff, my dismay is over the fact that no one ever seems to ever do this with a machete. Knives aplenty, but machetes -- not to be found. I realize there is a ton of competition out there with cheap machetes to deal with but I wish someone would have the guts to put a REALLY good one on the market for a reasonable price.

The basic Tramontina design is fine for the most part, but a few improvements could make it PERFECT. Smooth, full tang hardwood slab handles, with just a simple linseed oil finish, has about the perfect combination of friction and comfort for long term chopping for me. Screws would make sure they never come loose and allow you to replace them. Add to that a properly differentially hardened 5160 blade and we would be talking business. It wouldn't need to have a distal taper to make me happy, but a nice thin rolled edge is a must. Since it's a machete, 14" and 18" options are required. No metal finish is actually desirable, since a tool that cuts a LOT of wood will look better in the long run with a quick pass over a belt and some oil. Add a safe and durable sheath and I'm ready.

I'm sure I could talk a custom bladesmith into making me one for like $500 or so, but I think the appropriate price range would be closer to $125 for something like this. All the maker's cost being in the blade itself since the handle is practically free and no expensive finish is necessary. However, this would only be a blade for those few who understood its purpose. Armchair choppers would not be potential customers.

Until such a time as I find something like this, I will continue with my Tramontinas and the best chopper I have owned to date (out of MANY), a recent production Marbles Trailmaker that I re-handled with linseed oil finished curly maple. Fantastic in every regard, but I love the power and reach of a long blade. I just believe I can get the most work done with the least amount of effort with a machete.
 
Minuteman said:
I'm sure I could talk a custom bladesmith into making me one for like $500 or so, but I think the appropriate price range would be closer to $125 for something like this.
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Since you are looking at flat stock with no primary grind a custom version should be no where near $500, that price for production would also be high comparing it for example to the cost of Swamp Rat's for a similar price, that knife should be far cheaper than a Camp Tramp for example.

The question is how much of the machete market would pay say $50-$75 vs $5 for such a blade, or ignoring them, how many of the "high end" guys would look to that instead of the really high cost customs. They would also then compete with blades like the Valiant Goloks, BRK&T Golok, Becker Patrol Machete, etc. .

I'd like to see Swamp Rat come out with a longer and lighter version of the Battle Rat for such work with the new line. You might want to drop Busse an email, the more voices the louder the request that is heard usually. Justin of Ranger knives is also fairly receptive to new ideas.

...the best chopper I have owned to date (out of MANY), a recent production Marbles Trailmaker that I re-handled with linseed oil finished curly maple. Fantastic in every regard, but I love the power and reach of a long blade.
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Yes, I like large well ground bowies, but prefer longer blades for the same reason, I like parangs over machetes but vegetation cut is critical. You can go a long way with most production blades if you just lay a really heavy relief grind on the edge, you can easily double the cutting ability on most materials and raise the chopping ability by about 50% or so. It takes power equipment to do this without hours of work though.

-Cliff
 
I inhereted one of these from my Grand's on my Mom's side , the knife loks to be old but is still in great shape , especially after some TLC from me , the first time I really looked at it I thought it might make a great camp knife.
http://www.knivesplus.com/QN-77-Old-Hickory.HTML

Interesting idea on the CS thrower , I love seeing ingenuity like that.
I've been thinking on modding my Bushman for a while but havent gotten to it yet.
 
A lot seems to depend on how we treat the blade?
I carried out a few tests on my cheap blade and got some surprising results!

The knife is straight out of the packet and although I had to saw the blade a little, sliced up a tomato. No problem slicing beef for a stirfry.

Next I had to carry out my most feared test. I'm gunna try and build up for this one cos its the one test I found the most difficult to do and a bit like pulling your fingernails down a blackboard, its dropping the knife point down from 10 feet onto concrete. It just doesn't feel right!

Results are - after watching LOST on tele I sorta feel like making you wait... but as I'm totally over the suspense thing here goes ... the blade dug a little hole in the concrete.
About 1/8 inch on the tip lost a bit of the edge and showed signs if pitting from the crystal grains in the concrete. I hammered it with a rock on the tip and it bent a little leaving yet deeper pits in the blade.

Next test was to strip bark off five feet of 3/4 inch ironbark - Results are that I had to use a 10x magnifying glass to observe the wear on the blade edge and what i saw was ... virtually nothing.
The edge was uniform from the handle to just below the tip.

Next I got a bit of hardwood from my shed and I mean heavy hard wood (I used it for making a handle on a 14 inch bowie). I chopped into a section across the grain approximately 1000 times (groups of 100 at a time) and then checked the edge again with the magnifying glass ... the edge was dulled where I had been whacking the hardwood but not really lost much edge. Not able to slice the tomato but OK with the meat.

Next I ran the blade up and down a sandstone rock to see if I could sharpen it and the sandstone started cutting tiny grooves down the blade edge, enough to bring up a deadly serated edge.
Tomato no problem.

Last I put the blade flat on concrete and smashed it with a sandstone rock ... ha ha now I got ya ... remember the suspense in Lost ... naaa I can't do it ... the rock left quite deep little pits in the blade on both sides but the blade is still straight.

As for the handle I'm not gunna test is cos I recon It'll just crack and get loose eventually having to be smashed off and replaced with cord, cloth or skin.

I bought a machete the other day for $8 ;)
 
Higher end blades does mean more performance, usually in several ways, consistency from one blade to another, better edge retention, ability to grind a more efficient cutting edge, easier to sharpen, and usable for a wider scope of work. However even the really low end knives, if properly sharpened can do quite a lot of work, even really weak steel is still very hard and strong compared to food and woods. Man used much weaker and softer materials for knives for a long time. Nice work.

-Cliff
 
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