Chinese junk or what?

[Rat Finkenstein]

If the zillion Buck 110 clones haven't put Buck out of business, blah blah blah

That design is public domain. Zero relevance.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Did anybody ever hear about how Spyderco tried to patent the hole they have in their blade for the Bird model folder, and could not because of it being a hole and one can't patent a hole?...I thought that was funny.

you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

 

[Absintheur]

I agree with many in here, these obviously have been made to the same style pattern as other knives but then what custom maker or production manufacturer hasn't made a Loveless drop point clone? What is wrong are the companies selling obvious counterfeits as has been pointed out. I really doubt this is a real Dark Operations knife with a starting price of 5 bucks coming out of China. It is an obvious rip off, a counterfeit.

or from the same seller...I doubt this is a real MOD starting at the same price.

This same seller has had Reeve copies as well right down to the circle CR, I notified Chris Reeve and was thanked for the heads up and they got lawyers on it and that seller no longer tries to pass off those any longer. I do notify makers when I see their copyright names being ripped off.

I did order one of the knives in question however, with shipping was under 8 bucks and if the steel is what they say it is then it should be a decent enough blade...I will see. I have yet to be disappointed with any of the Rough Riders I have received, these may be the same.

 

[Sword and Shield]

Did anybody ever hear about how Spyderco tried to patent the hole they have in their blade for the Bird model folder, and could not because of it being a hole and one can't patent a hole?...I thought that was funny.

Um, they did have a patent on the hole for years.

 

[springman]

you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

Why would you say something so rude about me?
In answer to you question, Yes I do have an idea of what I'm talking about,...but it is obvious you don't know what I'm talking about, otherwise you would have not said such a rude thing.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

 

[springman]

Hey everyone, for the most part, most people don't mind being corrected and shown where they're wrong, I certainly don't, but I for one, don't feel as though anyone has to correct me in a rude manner, like MORIMTOM did...There are more polite ways. I admit I was wrong about the patent on the hole in the blade and Spyderco, but I did read it somewhere and I should have researched it before I repeated it I do apologive for my short comings, sorry.

 

[2brothers]

If there weren't any knockoffs, the original manufacturers of said
copied/knockedoff product would be able to keep their prices down
because their product would be purchased instead.
Manfs lose sales to these knockoffs, thus the increase in their prices to make up for lost sales.

mike

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I agree with many in here, these obviously have been made to the same style pattern as other knives but then what custom maker or production manufacturer hasn't made a Loveless drop point clone?

Bob Loveless has given his OK for people to use his designs. Have these companies that came up with the original designs given their OK for other companies to copy them? I think design theft is reprehensible and would never support a company that does it.

 

[Absintheur]

Bob Loveless has given his OK for people to use his designs. Have these companies that came up with the original designs given their OK for other companies to copy them? I think design theft is reprehensible and would never support a company that does it.

That was a simple, single example but what about the classic designs? How many companies make knives with thumb holes, how make them with thumb studs? For that matter how many makers make a sowbelly pattern, or a whittler pattern, or one of the hundred other standard patterns. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery and as long as it is not a copy made to deceive the buyer into thinking they are buying an original I have no problem with knives of "similar" design. This company does not try to make exact copies nor do they use the original designers name even as a reference such as those sold with the claim it is an "Paul design".

 

[Guyon]

Knockoffs create more choices for the consumer and and increases competition among manufacturers. This has been true since before there was a knife industry. Technology advances, companies and brands come and go. Yet the knife industry is stronger and more diverse now than ever before in the history of the world. And good knives can be had cheaper then ever before. Not only are there cheaper knives, the strength of the industry supports a huge boutique industry of custom and short run makers which simply could not have existed thirty or forty years ago. Despite the practice of knocking off designs being widely practiced, innovation continues more rapidly than ever before. You can thank competition.

There is a lot of hand wringing that goes on around these forums over stolen designs. It's almost always way overstated. Most designs and ideas are not legally protected. In this case, they cannot be stolen, because they don't actually belong to somebody else. And legally protected or not, manufacturers can pursue knockoffs as long as they can feed the lawyer's kitty. In the long run, though, this is often folly, using up resources where they may be more productively put to work. Such as designing newer and better knives.

:barf:

Sounds like the bull heard typically from consumers who buy and like cheap knockoff knives.

No thought whatsoever given to the designers who spend time, energy, and a lot of money designing the knives and having the designs patented.

Theft is theft. And it's always wrong. People who knowingly support thieves fall into the same boat.

I'd like to see shecky in a face-to-face with some knife designers like Sal Glesser, Tom Mayo, Ethan Becker, Jerry Busse, etc. and try some of these lines on them.


.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Why would you say something so rude about me?
In answer to you question, Yes I do have an idea of what I'm talking about,...but it is obvious you don't know what I'm talking about, otherwise you would have not said such a rude thing.

no you dont. otherwise you wouldn't have posted the comment about spyderco. or about not being able to trademark a hole on a knife.

Hey everyone, for the most part, most people don't mind being corrected and shown where they're wrong, I certainly don't, but I for one, don't feel as though anyone has to correct me in a rude manner, like MORIMTOM did...There are more polite ways. I admit I was wrong about the patent on the hole in the blade and Spyderco, but I did read it somewhere and I should have researched it before I repeated it I do apologive for my short comings, sorry.

you weren't even close, yet posted that nonsense as though it were fact.

you post inaccurate, demeaning comments about a company, and i will respond appropriately.

 

[shecky]

That design is public domain. Zero relevance.

When did that happen?

 

[shecky]

If there weren't any knockoffs, the original manufacturers of said
copied/knockedoff product would be able to keep their prices down
because their product would be purchased instead.
Manfs lose sales to these knockoffs, thus the increase in their prices to make up for lost sales.

mike

I'm not sure this makes any sense. Absent knockoffs, and presumaing demand stays high, a manufacturer has little incentive to keep prices down, since they essentially have a monopoly on a particular design.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I'm not sure this makes any sense. Absent knockoffs, and presumaing demand stays high, a manufacturer has little incentive to keep prices down, since they essentially have a monopoly on a particular design.

i think you are both wrong.

what manufacture lowers prices based on the availability of knock-offs and counterfeits? or raises prices based on the same availability?

a "monopoly" on a design is the result of a legal trademark or copyright, and the rightful production and distribution of a companies or maker's intellectual design and property.

 

[Cap'n Ahab]

The funny thing about that knockoff of the Dark Ops knife is that the Dark Ops knife is a blatant knockoff of Extrema Ratio design...

 

[shecky]

:barf:

Sounds like the bull heard typically from consumers who buy and like cheap knockoff knives.

Indeed. I have no qualms about buying a knife that represents a good value to me. Even if it's a cheap knockoff knife.

No thought whatsoever given to the designers who spend time, energy, and a lot of money designing the knives and having the designs patented.

Right again. I don't care one hoot about designers, their time, energy or money spent in their craft. I owe them nothing, and they owe me nothing. What I care about is knives. If their wares are successful in the marketplace, that is their reward. Your, my, or anyone else's good will does not translate into good knives unless their knives worth buying.

Theft is theft. And it's always wrong. People who knowingly support thieves fall into the same boat.

Once again, you cannot steal something that doesn't belong to someone else. Unless the copy is legally protected and successfully defended, copying is not theft.

I'd like to see shecky in a face-to-face with some knife designers like Sal Glesser, Tom Mayo, Ethan Becker, Jerry Busse, etc. and try some of these lines on them.

Bring 'em on. Look, nobody ever said running a business would be easy. I have no doubt a knife maker, or anyone in any business, gets pissed off about someone copying their ideas. You don't have to like reality. But it's foolhardy to think a good idea, hell, even a bad idea, will not be copied.

Glesser, Mayo, Becker, Busse, etc. and you, could yell at me until you're blue in the face. It isn't going to change the nature of free market capitalism.

 

[shecky]

i think you are both wrong.

what manufacture lowers prices based on the availability of knock-offs and counterfeits? or raises prices based on the same availability?

Our buddies supply and demand usually have a say. As an example, those Razor scooters that were the rage a few years back with the kids originally sold through high end stores and catalogs for a fairly healthy chunk of money. Nothing really high tech or special about a push scooter. But for a while, they could command a premium. Then along came the knockoffs, able to sell for half, a third, maybe even a quarter the price of the originals. I'm sure the guys at Razor were gritting their teeth. What did they do? figured out a way to sell them cheaper. Nowadays, you can buy a real Razor scooter for close to the same price as what the knockoffs were going for. Perhaps profit margins are thinner. But thin profits are better than none at all. Cry me a river.

It's possible Razor could have raised prices and kept a viable business model. But that would likely have meant selling fewer units overall and surrendering the lower end market to competitors. And it would also have meant figuring out a way to add value to make them to make them worth buying for the fewer willing to spend the extra $.

Either way, the low end market gets an offering, and more choices are available to the market as a whole.

This same model applies to knives, and just about any market.

In a way, we were both right, not wrong.

a "monopoly" on a design is the result of a legal trademark or copyright, and the rightful production and distribution of a companies or maker's intellectual design and property.

I use monopoly loosely to make a point. In the real world, a knife that doesn't get copied probably isn't worth copying. But presuming a product is in demand and not copied, for whatever reason, there is little incentive for the manufacturer to lower prices. Competition is usually the fire lit under their butts to cut costs.

 

[Keith_H]

It is sad to see theft like that, It is pretty low to put your name on somebody else's intellectual property. It is not that hard to make your own design, too.

 

[Keith_H]

And you cant just say that it will force the prices of the real thing lower, knife manufacturers of actual quality knives could not keep up.