Chinese junk or what?

[shecky]

And you cant just say that it will force the prices of the real thing lower, knife manufacturers of actual quality knives could not keep up.

You make two points.

And you cant just say that it will force the prices of the real thing lower

You are correct, knockoffs won't necessarily force prices lower. Nor will they necessarily force prices higher.

knife manufacturers of actual quality knives could not keep up.

Why not? Even in a market full of knockoffs today, knives are higher quality across the board, and decent quality is available at a lower cost than ever before.

I have no doubt competition has hurt some knife makers, even to the point of extinction. But that isn't a sign of weakness. It's a sign that the market works, where less competitive products fall by the wayside, forcing survivors to offer better products at greater value.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Right again. I don't care one hoot about designers, their time, energy or money spent in their craft. I owe them nothing, and they owe me nothing. What I care about is knives. If their wares are successful in the marketplace, that is their reward. Your, my, or anyone else's good will does not translate into good knives unless their knives worth buying.

manufactures owe us a quality product at a price point we are willing to pay, however much that is.

Once again, you cannot steal something that doesn't belong to someone else. Unless the copy is legally protected and successfully defended, copying is not theft.

because many or most or some companies choose not to seek litigation does not change the fact that a protected product or idea should not be copied without permission.

Bring 'em on. Look, nobody ever said running a business would be easy. I have no doubt a knife maker, or anyone in any business, gets pissed off about someone copying their ideas. You don't have to like reality. But it's foolhardy to think a good idea, hell, even a bad idea, will not be copied.

there is a gap between a copy and a counterfeit. the chinese knock offs we are seeing recently are visually identical, including brand markings.

many knives have similarities aside from having a blade and handle. when those similarities become indistinguishable from one another, and one knife has a protected feature, nothing short of a design theft has taken place.

Glesser, Mayo, Becker, Busse, etc. and you, could yell at me until you're blue in the face. It isn't going to change the nature of free market capitalism.

the ideas of free market capitalism do not support design theft or copyright infringement. you have broadened the definition to fit your argument, erroneously.

Our buddies supply and demand usually have a say. As an example, those Razor scooters that were the rage a few years back with the kids originally sold through high end stores and catalogs for a fairly healthy chunk of money. Nothing really high tech or special about a push scooter. But for a while, they could command a premium. Then along came the knockoffs, able to sell for half, a third, maybe even a quarter the price of the originals. I'm sure the guys at Razor were gritting their teeth. What did they do? figured out a way to sell them cheaper. Nowadays, you can buy a real Razor scooter for close to the same price as what the knockoffs were going for. Perhaps profit margins are thinner. But thin profits are better than none at all. Cry me a river.

i dont know the details of the razor scooter phenomenon. was the original protected? did the patent expire like glocks trigger mechanism?

It's possible Razor could have raised prices and kept a viable business model. But that would likely have meant selling fewer units overall and surrendering the lower end market to competitors. And it would also have meant figuring out a way to add value to make them to make them worth buying for the fewer willing to spend the extra $.

Either way, the low end market gets an offering, and more choices are available to the market as a whole.

This same model applies to knives, and just about any market.

In a way, we were both right, not wrong.

I use monopoly loosely to make a point. In the real world, a knife that doesn't get copied probably isn't worth copying. But presuming a product is in demand and not copied, for whatever reason, there is little incentive for the manufacturer to lower prices. Competition is usually the fire lit under their butts to cut costs.

as it relates to knives and our discussion, show me a company that has changed its pricing as the result of counterfeit products.

ive seen chinese copies of busse, spyderco, crk, kershaw, you name it. i have seen nothing to indicate their business model has changed as a result, nor do i see any change in pricing.

we discourage the purchase of these items here. well, most of us. partly out of brand loyalty, partly to protect companies that have legitimate patents from successful design theft, and partly because its just the right thing to do.

in other parts of the world, where our patent laws legally have may have no legitmacy, they can do what they want. when they attempt to market their products here as genuine, or as copies so similar it would take an expert to separate them, imo we certainly have an obligation as consumers to avoid those knives and discourage any distribution.

 

[Guyon]

Indeed. I have no qualms about buying a knife that represents a good value to me. Even if it's a cheap knockoff knife.

Right again. I don't care one hoot about designers, their time, energy or money spent in their craft. I owe them nothing, and they owe me nothing. What I care about is knives. If their wares are successful in the marketplace, that is their reward. Your, my, or anyone else's good will does not translate into good knives unless their knives worth buying.

Once again, you cannot steal something that doesn't belong to someone else. Unless the copy is legally protected and successfully defended, copying is not theft.

Bring 'em on. Look, nobody ever said running a business would be easy. I have no doubt a knife maker, or anyone in any business, gets pissed off about someone copying their ideas. You don't have to like reality. But it's foolhardy to think a good idea, hell, even a bad idea, will not be copied.

Glesser, Mayo, Becker, Busse, etc. and you, could yell at me until you're blue in the face. It isn't going to change the nature of free market capitalism.

Moral relativism is a dangerous thing.

 

[Tobacco_Spit]

OK guys, aside from patent infringement, knockoffs etc...Would you buy a Chinese knife that was not a copy but had decent steel, good ergos, excellent fit n finish, solid liner lock up etc. for 10 bucks? Well this goes back to my original quandary, if the knife is solid should I be disappointed about country of origin or have I been conditioned to think like that??

TS

 

[MORIMOTOM]

OK guys, aside from patent infringement, knockoffs etc...Would you buy a Chinese knife that was not a copy but had decent steel, good ergos, excellent fit n finish, solid liner lock up etc. for 10 bucks? Well this goes back to my original quandary, if the knife is solid should I be disappointed about country of origin or have I been conditioned to think like that??

TS

i generally prefer to buy american made, or from an american company. spyderco has knives manufactured in china and japan, as do other american companies.

but in and of itself, i see nothing wrong with buying a chinese knife if that is what you want, like, and can afford.

 

[Guyon]

OK guys, aside from patent infringement, knockoffs etc...Would you buy a Chinese knife that was not a copy but had decent steel, good ergos, excellent fit n finish, solid liner lock up etc. for 10 bucks? Well this goes back to my original quandary, if the knife is solid should I be disappointed about country of origin or have I been conditioned to think like that??

TS

Only if the knife came from a U.S. maker I wanted to support: Buck, Spyderco, etc. That scenario would require that the economy be so tight that the $20 or $30 difference would really be important. (And we'd have to disregard the fact that I have enough good knives to last multiple lifetimes already.)

That said, I don't think I have any Chinese made knives, aside from some remnants of my teenage years when I didn't know any better. That handful of knives probably resides in various tackle boxes as bait knives. I really couldn't put my finger on any of them right away if you asked me to.

 

[Tobacco_Spit]

I can understand that American made knives have a sentimental value and support for American jobs or companies is admirable, my only other question is that I have seen some domestic knives with worse QC than many of the Chinese knives I have come across lately. Is it a coming trend? If and when most Chinese knives come out solid in the QC dept. then, will the American manufacturers fail or will they be more so forced to create products in Asia? I predict both from the trends I am seeing, especially with major American companies already 'testing the waters' with the imports.

TS

 

[riffraff]

OK guys, aside from patent infringement, knockoffs etc...Would you buy a Chinese knife that was not a copy but had decent steel, good ergos, excellent fit n finish, solid liner lock up etc. for 10 bucks? Well this goes back to my original quandary, if the knife is solid should I be disappointed about country of origin or have I been conditioned to think like that??

TS

Syderco, Benchmade, Buck, Kershaw, and others all have inexpensive knives that are made in China (under license by them) to meet a certain price point; it's really the only way to stay competitive in a global economy. I still tend to look to buy US-made knives, but I have an Outcast in D2 that is a helluva blade for the price. Same with some of the better Chinese-made Cree LED flashlights that I'd put up against any SureFire or Pelican.

In the early 60's, "Made in Japan" was a derogitory distinction. But they got better at it...witness their cars and optics. Then it was the "Made in Korea" stamp that people scoffed at. Now look at Samsung and LG. I have a decent Pentax zoom that was made in, of all places, South Viet Nam. But just like Chinese knives made for American companies, they are overseen by the parent company, and the build quality is fine.

Right now, China is moving into that same level. A lot of it is junk, and they still have problems with their materials being toxic on occasion ( ) but the stuff is slowly getting better. It has to, for their economy to grow. Unless people reward them by buying counterfeits! :thumbdn:

If you're looking for an inexpensive knife, and have no qualms about whether you "Buy American," at least buy stuff that's an original design, or made under license. IMHO.

(That being said, you can still buy inexpensive US-made knives, you know. I just picked up a US-made Buck 110 for $20, and the US-made Kershaw Zing can be had for around $40...a truly unique knife with great steel.)

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I can understand that American made knives have a sentimental value and support for American jobs or companies is admirable, my only other question is that I have seen some domestic knives with worse QC than many of the Chinese knives I have come across lately. Is it a coming trend? If and when most Chinese knives come out solid in the QC dept. then, will the American manufacturers fail or will they be more so forced to create products in Asia? I predict both from the trends I am seeing, especially with major American companies already 'testing the waters' with the imports.

TS

my experience has been the exact opposite.

there will always be knives that slip through, but in the case of american companies, you have some recourse. the reputable companies will either fix or replace your knife.

unless there is a reputable american distributor for your chinese knife, you would be stuck with what you get.

 

[shecky]

manufactures owe us a quality product at a price point we are willing to pay, however much that is.

Manufacturers owe nothing to to anybody except the owners or shareholders.

because many or most or some companies choose not to seek litigation does not change the fact that a protected product or idea should not be copied without permission.

A protected product is protected, presuming you mean by patent, copyright or trademark. Absent those protections, they are pretty much free game.

there is a gap between a copy and a counterfeit. the chinese knock offs we are seeing recently are visually identical, including brand markings.

You are correct. There is a difference between copy and counterfeit. I have pointed this distinction out several times before in other threads. But this doesn't really pertain to Sanrenmu knives, some of which seem to be copies, but are clearly marked with the Sanrenmu logo.

many knives have similarities aside from having a blade and handle. when those similarities become indistinguishable from one another, and one knife has a protected feature, nothing short of a design theft has taken place.

Do any of the knives in question have "protected" features? Do they infrings on patents, copyrights or trademarks? If not, the design theft hasn't occurred.

the ideas of free market capitalism do not support design theft or copyright infringement. you have broadened the definition to fit your argument, erroneously.

You have broadened the definition of theft to fit your argument. Once again, you cannot steal something that doesn't belong to someone else.

BTW, I don't believe copyright usually applies to something like a knife.

i dont know the details of the razor scooter phenomenon. was the original protected? did the patent expire like glocks trigger mechanism?

It seems you've been arguing that patents don't matter, design theft is design theft. So does it matter if the Razor had a patent that expired?

FWIW, I think the design was patented. But it didn't matter. Demand was too high and knockoffs too numerous to deal with. I believe it was a case where they could have gone broke simply plugging every leak.

as it relates to knives and our discussion, show me a company that has changed its pricing as the result of counterfeit products.

Now you're moving goalposts. Counterfeit products clarifies matters some, and manufacturers have more legal leverage against such goods.

Regarding knife copies, I can only offer outside appearances. The Buck 110 may be one of the most copied designs of all time. Yet it's available for less money today than it was 25 years ago, adjusted for inflation. Not only have the costs been amortized over the products lifetime, but significant cost cutting seems to have taken place over that time. This makes the knockoff a less palatable option for consumers.

ive seen chinese copies of busse, spyderco, crk, kershaw, you name it. i have seen nothing to indicate their business model has changed as a result, nor do i see any change in pricing.

I haven't actually seen it much either. But if this is the case, then why all the moral outrage over copies to start with? As pointed out by some other posters, some knockoffs don't even compete with the products they copy. Somebody in the market for a Sebenza doesn't see a <$10 Sanrenmu and think it's a viable alternative. But someone in the market for a <$10 knife may find it a useful alternative and may never justify the cost of an original. Either way, no money is lost to the original.

we discourage the purchase of these items here. well, most of us. partly out of brand loyalty, partly to protect companies that have legitimate patents from successful design theft, and partly because its just the right thing to do.

in other parts of the world, where our patent laws legally have may have no legitmacy, they can do what they want. when they attempt to market their products here as genuine, or as copies so similar it would take an expert to separate them, imo we certainly have an obligation as consumers to avoid those knives and discourage any distribution.

I have less problem with discouraging true design theft. But it's not clear that has happened with Sanrenmu knives. I have no interest in protecting companies or brand loyalty.

The day copies need an expert to distinguish them from originals will be a good day for knife consumers. And a tough day for knife manufacturers. When the only difference between a copy and original is the building it came from, business models will change by necessity.

 

[Guyon]

I have less problem with discouraging true design theft.

This line alone speaks volumes about the ethical position from which these ideas come.

 

[shecky]

This line alone speaks volumes about the ethical position from which these ideas come.

Your replies to me are pretty cryptic. Care to elaborate?

 

[dalee100]

OK guys, aside from patent infringement, knockoffs etc...Would you buy a Chinese knife that was not a copy but had decent steel, good ergos, excellent fit n finish, solid liner lock up etc. for 10 bucks? Well this goes back to my original quandary, if the knife is solid should I be disappointed about country of origin or have I been conditioned to think like that??

TS

Hi,

Yep, you've been conditioned to think that any China made knife can be only junk. Again, they will make what ever you want at what ever quality you want to pay for.

If you find a Chinese made knife that you like, why would you not still like it just because it's marked made in China?

dalee

 

[Guyon]

Your replies to me are pretty cryptic. Care to elaborate?

I think folks here pretty much get my drift.

 

[markksr]

I think folks here pretty much get my drift.

It's as clear as day in which direction some people's moral compass points.

 

[riffraff]

I think folks here pretty much get my drift.

"As clear as an azure sky of deepest summer."

 

[Guyon]

Tobacco_Spit, knives are one of the few areas regarding American production that you can support without great inconvenience. It is difficult, if not impossible, these days to find electronics, appliances, housewares, even cars that are entirely made in the States.

However, with knives, it is not that hard to purchase from solid American companies that make a quality product. Spyderco, Buck, Kershaw, Benchmade, etc. all make good knives at various price points. Sure, some of them outsource certain models or parts, but many, if not most, of their products are made here in the U.S. from American materials.

In recent years, we've see the demise of two American giants in the knife industry, Schrade and Camillus. Both suffered from mismanagement and greed (at the upper levels of management) during their respective ends, and both paid the price. However, both also likely suffered at the hands of competition from cheaply made knockoffs produced by Chinese manufacturers and consumed by people who had neither morals nor taste when it came to quality cutlery.

It does boil down to an ethical choice here. Do you want to support the future of American cutlery, or would you prefer to think only of yourself and purchase a copy or counterfeit? We're talking about approximately $30 here as the difference between a Chinese knockoff and a quality-made American folder. I guess you have to ask yourself whether or not your moral compass is worth $30.

 

[springman]

no you dont. otherwise you wouldn't have posted the comment about spyderco. or about not being able to trademark a hole on a knife.



you weren't even close, yet posted that nonsense as though it were fact.

you post inaccurate, demeaning comments about a company, and i will respond appropriately.

What I originally read on a forum called edcforums.com was this comment:

"Phill makes a good point about identical "design aims" producing similar products. My understanding is that Spyderco attempeted to patent the opening hole but were not allowd to as a hole is an empty space and you cannot claim to have invented the empty space :lolhammer: It's just that I check the recent additions page on that site everyday and when I saw that my eyes pretty much told me IT WAS a UKPK I was actually confused for a second :idiot2: when I saw the name.

:shrug:

Yes it's cheaper but I'd definitely pay the extra for '30v over 400c any day."...

That's what inspired me to post my comment about the hole, I knew I read it somewhere, otherwise I would not have ever said this;

" Did anybody ever hear about how Spyderco tried to patent the hole they have in their blade for the Byrd model folder, and could not because of it being a hole and one can't patent a hole?...I thought that was funny."

Then I went further to investigate and found on a forum called "BritishBlades.com", a comment from Sal himself wrote, stating...

"Our patent was not on a hole of any sort. It was on a ledge or ridge as part of the blade that one could use the fleshy part of the thumb to contact the ridge and open the folding knife with one hand."...
Here is the entire statement. But most of it has no bearing, nevertheless it was this first sentence;
" We used a round hole when we began making knives because we believed it would work best, but as time went on and other companies found loopholes in our patent, they began making holes of differen shapes. We were getting trounced in the market place so we had to concede that a round hole didn't in fact work any better than any other hole shape for opening a folder.
Our competitors didn't use a round hole, not because of any legal reasons, but because they didn't like the hump that using a round hole created. Some didn't use a round hole just out of respect, but not all companies are gifted with that atrtribute.

Since no one used a round hole, the round hole became associated with Spyderco. Because of that association, we were able to trademark the shape.

Now the round hole is still associated with Spyderco and it is probably the most powerful identifier in the industry. That is prpobablu wjhy so many companies want to look like us. Since it is our trademark, I have chosen to incorporate the round hole in all of our knives. That way people will know it's a Spyderco just by looking at the knife and not having to read the tang.

Because one company is using a round hole in some of there knives hardly devalues the trademark. The Spyderco round hole is known all over the world and is associated with Spyderco, not the "other" company. In fact the "other" company is seen as tryng to imitate.
The "other" company is certainly not using a round hole because they want to look like Strider or some other knife company. We have learned that many companies try to look like Spyderco. Primarily becasue we earned our reputation for quality and performance the hard way. Some are using more than one round hole, some are using almost round holes, etc. You know what they say about "sincerest form of flattery"? I guess we are flattered.
None the less, we will put a round hole in our knives. If some of our potential customers choose not to purchase an otherwise excellent knife simply because they don't like the hole, that is their choice, which I accept.
The industry has been following Spyderco's lead for 25 years. They are not likely to stop. Much of the innoation in the knife industry began at Spyderco. I'm sure you will see more.
Let's just watch the followers on our new BaliYo.

sal..."

Now, MORIMOTOM did this satisfy you?...I was man enough to apologize for my shortcomings, are you man enough to apologize for your rude remarks to me?...After all, there were nicer ways to correct me, like the others did.

 

[Guyon]

Now, MORIMOTOM did this satisfy you?...I was man enough to apologize for my shortcomings, are you man enough to apologize for your rude remarks to me?...After all, there were nicer ways to correct me, like the others did.

springman, in just 6 posts here at BFC, you've managed to produce your own little drama. My advice is to just let it go. That said, I have to agree with MORIMOTOM that you don't speak authoritatively for us all. When you say...

Copying an item isn't wrong...

...you are forwarding an ethical assertion as gospel. However, when Chinese companies copy someone else's hard-earned designs in order to make a quick buck, that's certainly "not right" to a lot of people. It's one of the reasons that, at Blade and other shows, companies like Spyderco don't allow photographs of their prototypes. They know that, if they do, their new designs, designs for which they paid money and rights in order to develop, are going to show up on the black market within months, if not weeks.

Perhaps you and shecky can explain to me how such actions by Chinese knockoff artists are "right."

 

[springman]

springman, in just 6 posts here at BFC, you've managed to produce your own little drama. My advice is to just let it go. That said, I have to agree with MORIMOTOM that you don't speak authoritatively for us all. When you say...



...you are forwarding an ethical assertion as gospel. However, when Chinese companies copy someone else's hard-earned designs in order to make a quick buck, that's certainly "not right" to a lot of people. It's one of the reasons that, at Blade and other shows, companies like Spyderco don't allow photographs of their prototypes. They know that, if they do, their new designs, designs for which they paid money and rights in order to develop, are going to show up on the black market within months, if not weeks.

Perhaps you and shecky can explain to me how such actions by Chinese knockoff artists are "right."

I don't want to prolong this or seem argumentative, but you seem to have taken a few words from the text that I posted and not the rest. Read it in it's entirety. What I'm trying to say is, and I've heard it said once: If Frank Sinatra were singing his song, that's fine, that's great. But if a Chinese guy were up on stage, singing that same Frank Sinatra song and calling himself Frank Sinatra, that's totally wrong.
Now, with patents, they have a shelf-life. And when the shelf-life runs out, they're open to being copied. Now, if you put your name on the design you copied, that's one thing. But if you put the designer's name on your copy of his knife, that is totally wrong. And that is all I was trying to say.
And, Guyon, about what you said about "companies like Spyderco don't allow photographs of their prototypes. They know that, if they do, their new designs, designs for which they paid money and rights in order to develop, are going to show up on the black market within months, if not weeks. "
- I totally agree with this.