Chinese Shirogorov clone

Spartan00 said:
No I'm discussing the topic of this thread . Not baiting other members for the sole purpose of arguing on the internet. Your on my ignore list now bud . Last post you'll get from me.
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It was not intended as an attack on you or bait. I thought you might have something to say about it. My mistake.
 
Kohai999 said:
Knives of a certain style and cachet are made for people who know they want them and can afford to pay for them.

A good friend of mine, a knifemaker from Texas was set up at a gun show a few years ago. The knife he had on the table was $5,000.00. A prospective buyer came up and said "I could buy a car for that amount of money". My friend, nonplussed, said "I make knives for people who already OWN cars".:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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I like that...



I just spent more this week on Titanium than my car is worth... but I do already have the car. :D
 
Kohai999 said:
People who buy clones/counterfeits deserve all the bad karma coming their way, and that is simple as that.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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What about the custom knifemakers who sell directly to dealers known to sell clones? Sure they may not be expensive clones but many many dealers who are very very popular sell knives that were most definitely rip offs of other peoples work. Why would custom makers use a dealer network like that? I will not even speculate. But I would like to understand why people come under attack for buying these items yet no one really has anything to say about the dealers who sell them. This is usually where the argument of its not a counterfeit its a clone comes into play. But many are making it clear this house holds no distinction. I know and understand why some dislike the clone and counterfeit market. I don't even want to get into that as we all know where each other stands on that. But no one can tell me why dealers of such items get a pass yet it the buyers who catch the heat? Custom knives usually don't have a distributor network unless they are out of the united states. In most cases custom knife makers sell directly to dealers. So custom makers have a choice to not support those who actively sell clones. Yet every day I see new custom knives from some of the most vocal makers against clones utilizing these dealers for their goods. People can say they hate Wal-Mart all they want and despise their business practices. But not when they are asking Wal-Mart to carry their products.
 
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We all support Chinese goods that have taken manufacturing jobs out of the U.S., and put good people out of work. It's happened over and over, big corporations move their manufacturing overseas, and sell us cheap crap that is no longer USA made. And we as Americans eat it up. To point the finger at someone for buying a clone is a little hypocritical IMO.

That being said, I won't buy clones. I've been tempted when I see a $1000+ production knife and it's Chinese equivalent for around 100. But I don't want to support that kind of business. I just think we shouldn't be so quick to judge.
 
Armadew said:
I hope you aren't referring to my post as I don't wish any ill will on anybody. I also think those talking about Karma don't actually mean it like that either, but I don't speak for them.

I also don't care what other forums for other hobbies do/say or what they have accepted as normal. I'm passionate about knives and respect those who design them. I won't slap them in the face by supporting those who steal from them. Simple.
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wasn't referring to your post, mostly about the bad karma comment :)
 
stonproject said:
wasn't referring to your post, mostly about the bad karma comment :)
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I was 99.99% sure that was the case. I was just worried about being misunderstood. Sorry if I came across as over-defensive.

Anyway. To the OP who probably has run to the hills:

Great looking knife! IMO, better so save for the real-deal than support those who steal. The ones who designed that great looking knife deserve the business, and they don't deserve to have shady companies steal their great designs and have those who support their bad practices advertise for them.
 
PURPLEDC said:
What about the custom knifemakers who sell directly to dealers known to sell clones? Sure they may not be expensive clones but many many dealers who are very very popular sell knives that were most definitely rip offs of other peoples work. Why would custom makers use a dealer network like that? I will not even speculate. But I would like to understand why people come under attack for buying these items yet no one really has anything to say about the dealers who sell them. This is usually where the argument of its not a counterfeit its a clone comes into play. But many are making it clear this house holds no distinction. I know and understand why some dislike the clone and counterfeit market. I don't even want to get into that as we all know where each other stands on that. But no one can tell me why dealers of such items get a pass yet it the buyers who catch the heat? Custom knives usually don't have a distributor network unless they are out of the united states. In most cases custom knife makers sell directly to dealers. So custom makers have a choice to not support those who actively sell clones. Yet every day I see new custom knives from some of the most vocal makers against clones utilizing these dealers for their goods. People can say they hate Wal-Mart all they want and despise their business practices. But not when they are asking Wal-Mart to carry their products.
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I can address to the dealers who sell clones. I was a knife dealer and never sold anything that could be called a clone OR a counterfeit, and if my business was active today, would have the same philosophy.

Can't talk to the makers who chose to work with said dealers. I have purchased two knives from AZCK(a Steigerwalt and a G&G Hawk), two from TNK(Elishewitz and Tighe) and five from Nordic Knives(Gordon, Imel, Maragni, McBurnette and I can't remember the other one). Don't really pay attention to dealers or the makers they represent, sorry.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
I can address to the dealers who sell clones. I was a knife dealer and never sold anything that could be called a clone OR a counterfeit, and if my business was active today, would have the same philosophy.

Can't talk to the makers who chose to work with said dealers. I have purchased two knives from AZCK(a Steigerwalt and a G&G Hawk), two from TNK(Elishewitz and Tighe) and five from Nordic Knives(Gordon, Imel, Maragni, McBurnette and I can't remember the other one). Don't really pay attention to dealers or the makers they represent, sorry.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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I appreciate and respect the response. Thanks.
 
May I ask y'all do you eat Oreos? If you're answer is yes then you do support counterfeits. Oreos were originally a knock off of a different cookie. I wouldn't say I support clones and what not but as long as it says a different brand and doesn't try to pass as real then I'm not against it. It's when someone sells a stryker that looks exactly like a benchmade stryker and is labeled benchmade on the clip that I have a problem.


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blade dude said:
May I ask y'all do you eat Oreos? If you're answer is yes then you do support counterfeits. Oreos were originally a knock off of a different cookie. .
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"The name Oreo was first trademarked on March 14, 1912.[7] It was launched as an imitation of the Hydrox cookie manufactured by Sunshine company, introduced in 1908.[8]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreo

So, it's been it's own brand for over a century...not at all the same as some dork trying to cash in on the current popularity of a knife design.
Pretty sure you know that it's entirely different though.
 
stabman said:
"The name Oreo was first trademarked on March 14, 1912.[7] It was launched as an imitation of the Hydrox cookie manufactured by Sunshine company, introduced in 1908.[8]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreo

So, it's been it's own brand for over a century...not at all the same as some dork trying to cash in on the current popularity of a knife design.
Pretty sure you know that it's entirely different though.
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It's entirely different because the only knives anyone gets upset about are Chinese knock offs of currently "hot" knives. If one of these companies can keep the knock offs going as long as Oreo or Schrade did, then it would be okay. Or if they are Microtech, then it would be okay.

I'm sure there are other rules, I just haven't figured them out.:D
 
blade dude said:
May I ask y'all do you eat Oreos? If you're answer is yes then you do support counterfeits. Oreos were originally a knock off of a different cookie. I wouldn't say I support clones and what not but as long as it says a different brand and doesn't try to pass as real then I'm not against it. It's when someone sells a stryker that looks exactly like a benchmade stryker and is labeled benchmade on the clip that I have a problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It's still theft of intellectual property no matter how it is branded. A PM2 clone still steals the design from the rightful designers even if they give it a rainbow blade and a bright pink handle. The shape of the knife is the most important aspect of the knife, yeah? Kinda what distinguishes is from every other knife. Branding is immaterial on that front.

I would say that falsely-branded knives represent a whole additional level of theft and moral corruption, not where it begins to be questionable.

I still honestly believe that the only legitimate function of cloned knives is to get the feel for something that is otherwise prohibitive expensive to buy just to "try out." Even then, you've essentially added 10-20% onto the cost of the knife in doing so and represents a poor use of money.

Honestly, if you want to try something out (and this is not aimed at you, but is just a general relevant statement) then just buy it from a dealer and return it if dissatisfied. There was a time when clones represented a true bargain - D2 steel and titanium for under $200! Now, there are original designs from respectable manufacturers in that price range with similar or better materials. It makes me question my previous statements about clones having staying power now that I think about it.

I'm seeing more and more original designs on the websites that are known for cloned knives (whose names will go unmentioned) than I have before. There are some companies who seem to have made their debut with original designs and have been successful! There are even some fixed blades I have been eyeing that are of original design and are well-reviewed.

With any luck, and with the continued success of original designs coming out of China, there may be a steady decline in the clone market. Collaborations with custom makers bring the more premium designs within the reach of Joe Schmoe, and without the horribly slow shipping or the inherent doubt as to whether the materials claimed to be used were actually implemented.

That's why I'd always gone with the most bargain-basement POS clone whenever I wanted to try out the Hinderer design or the DOC design. Back when I got them, they represented decent value. Now? I can get an 0562 for about the price I paid for my Hinderer clone. I can get a Manix in 110V for how much I paid for the DOC. I don't know if there's really any point to them these days. Even the Shiro clones are just kinda okay for the money, and completely miss the point of the insanely precise tuning and construction of the genuine article.
 
RX-79G said:
It's entirely different because the only knives anyone gets upset about are Chinese knock offs of currently "hot" knives.
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That is untrue...just look at any Strider thread.
People get upset about all sorts of things on this site.

The clone thing though, that is something worth being annoyed about.
Some of these clones are like if someone copied the entire text of my first book but changed it to Stabberman: Dairy of a Superhero/Psycho, and changed a few words here and there.
"Oh, it's a totally different book...on page 128, paragraph 3, sentence 3, we added the word "a"...that totally changes the entire work! It's original!"
 
stabman said:
That is untrue...just look at any Strider thread.
People get upset about all sorts of things on this site.

The clone thing though, that is something worth being annoyed about.
Some of these clones are like if someone copied the entire text of my first book but changed it to Stabberman: Dairy of a Superhero/Psycho, and changed a few words here and there.
"Oh, it's a totally different book...on page 128, paragraph 3, sentence 3, we added the word "a"...that totally changes the entire work! It's original!"
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Except every sentence of Stabberman (available now from Amazon.com) is copyrighted, and only a few knives, like Spyderco, bother to copyright the look of their products.

Aside from that, right now we have this thread, a Microtech thread and Strider thread going. No one has wished harm on the Microtech and Strider buyers. No one gets particularly (or at all) upset when people rip off Emerson's Wave feature patent. So I don't think it purely comes down BF members being head over heels about intellectual property in general, since their reaction to different versions of the same chicanery is so inconsistent.

It would be nice if folks that wanted to rage about every instance of a Chinese clone/copy/kinda-sorta would first sniff whatever is oozing out of their Microtechs and take it down a notch.


Aside from having a Sanrenmu that takes a little imagination to get upset about, I'm kind of fascinated by how close these copies/counterfeits get in duplicating the look and precision of expensive folders. I don't want or need any of them, but it is an interesting facet of the knife world.
 
RX-79G said:
Except every sentence of Stabberman (available now from Amazon.com) is copyrighted, and only a few knives, like Spyderco, bother to copyright the look of their products.

Aside from that, right now we have this thread, a Microtech thread and Strider thread going. No one has wished harm on the Microtech and Strider buyers.
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You should have seen some previous threads. :eek:

It got really ugly at times.
 
Dear Lord Baby Jesus, please don't make me regret posting this (In Ricky Bobby voice)! Before I thought much about it and knew any better, I bought a Hati clone. And yes, I know it was wrong, and I will not and have not bought another! I have to say though, I would never spend the money on an original Hati...I just can't see nor afford to put that much into one knife. That being said, the quality of the $75ish clone I got was pretty good for that amount of money. I know, nothing compared to the real thing, but the F&F, lockup and action really did surprise me. Now, one more time.... I know what I did was wrong and I will not do it again!
 
Armadew said:
Sad to see some people I once respected supporting the purchasing of clones/counterfeits. How in earth can you be passionate about this hobby and at the same time support this?? Sickening and utterly baffling.
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I agree, and I just can not wrap my brain around some things; this being one of them. Very disheartening, isn't it?! :(:(
 
When the Japanese first started making motorbikes they copied the British designs before coming up with their own. I make reproduction Shaker furniture that is identical except the glue; I see it as honouring their skill. I would not buy a 'copy' of a Rolex as it is nothing like a real Rolex. Perhaps it just comes down to the quality of the copy? A quality Chinese knife company that starts with copies of high quality products as a target and to create an identity for itself may then create it's own identity and products. This birthing process of a company is an attempt to shortcut the way to success. Success relies on a quality product, those that remain stuck in mediocrity eke out a living on price alone. They also need to create their own identity or their efforts are wasted.
The consumer that buys on image alone may discover over half their purchases are duds. The knowledgeable consumer seeking value for less money may be happy. The issue of 'ripping off' designs, patents, ideas, etc is endemic worldwide. Ultimately I see it as a source of growth. It helps keep prices in check as well as some companies delusions of grandeur. It is not going away, decrying it will not stop it; the educated consumer will keep it in check. Do whatever makes you happy!
 
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