Chinese Shirogorov clone

Quit buying clones. It's supporting theft. Quit justifying it by some getting a feel for it crap theory. Blah blah blah
 
Comeuppance said:
Let's not get too caught up in taking rhetoric too literally. I doubt anyone honestly wishes me or other members genuine bodily harm for having purchased clones in the past - that kind of thinking should be reserved for those who knowingly resell them as the genuine article :)

That said, realistically, even if they did wish real harm, it's a wish and thus of no value or substance. It's like getting upset with someone because they -wish- North Korea would just be wiped off the face of the earth. It's not reasonable or morally right, but it's also not going to happen just because someone wishes it so with their true heart of hearts.

Opinions and wishes - debatable but of no threat to anyone. People can wish I would fall down a flight of stairs for my DOC clone that I'm gifting to my co-worker (keeping one so we can be twinsies), and I will be blissfully unaware of their ill wishes.
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Some people such as me wish they would just shut up when they have the urge to make extremist dehumanizing comments and people such as me will just speak back and remind them that there are idiots out there who would belive that extremist rant. I would be compelled to ask if they actually belived their own garbage comments or if it's just a purid joke.

I for one do not like clones that pop up right after a new design becomes well liked made by some lame loser/losers that can not come up with their own ideas. Passing one off as a real one is outright theft and fraud mass producing an unmarked clone of and original immediately after it hits the market is patent infringement and generally wrong. It is bad ethics and I refuse to support it with my money.

Things start to get tricky when the design is not exactly origianal but rather a slight modification of a very old designs or an outright reintroduction of a very old design that has been on the market a long time one example would be some idiot claiming wootz steel is his patented design.

I have seen some people accuse people that manufacture designs that go back centuries of patent infringement and try to claim that someone who merely reintroduced it back into the market is entitled to patent protection. This is a great fantasy that holds no weight in the real world.

I do not like or agree with Chinas decision to ignore patent infringers but I also have my share disdain for US manufactureres that blatently violate patent law because the original designer lacks the funds to fight them in court. Frankly I get tired of hearing people rag on China and other forein countries for this practice when many if not most US major knife companies are king of the scumbags when it comes to biting other makers designs without out their consent and rippiing of knife makers on their agreed commissions even though they made a ton of money off the knifemakers name and design. Some of these companies take it an extra step by claiming designs thqt are decades if not centuries old belong to them. The button lock comes to mind here.

I wish a new law were passed that would require the chairman of these big US ripoff companies to be bitch slapped across the face and up and down by both the judge and the original designer before being forced to honor and respect the orignal new works of others but hey that doesn't mean it will come true right
 
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I am all about customs now and love finding a new custom knife maker that makes a great custom knife. Fit, finish, quality, heat treat, strength, etc.
Even trying my hand at making a few fixed and folders.

But I have to admit my first knife was a Buck 110 "Made in China" blade stamp junker. I am sure some people here started out with knives like that.

Knife appreciation all starts somewhere!!
 
FWIW, why not buy something from Kizer?
They are making their own designs and some pretty cool colab knives at decent prices. :thumbup:
 
evltcat said:
FWIW, why not buy something from Kizer?
They are making their own designs and some pretty cool colab knives at decent prices. :thumbup:
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WALL O TEXT WARNING

Sometimes if the company is truly legit that would work. You would support a company collaborating with knifemakers instead of stealing. But the problem is not knowing which Chinese makers are truly on the up and up. There are some companies who will remain nameless who have double businesses. They make branded knives for the US market but they also make knives under different brand names dedicated to making clones and counterfeits. I'm not saying kizer is one of them. I'm just saying there is very little way to ensure you aren't unintentionally helping a company that is double dipping.

I think the real threat here is the veil on Chinese knife making has been lifted. And what I mean when I say that is for a number of years there was this urban legend that the Chinese were literally incapable of getting their hands on premium materials and lacked the experience and know how to utilize these materials. The cat is out of the bag on that little fable and we all know now what they can make and to what quality level. Some were only not buying Chinese because they didn't think they could get a quality knife. Even on this forum it was widely speculated that they could not import the materials successfully and still remain profitable.

The real question is how do you combat IP theft? I honestly don't think the answer lies within an all out boycott of china and refusing to buy its products and refusing to do business with them. I think more makers need to follow suit and collaborate with china. I am noticing a trend that the companies who vehemently oppose Chinese knife manufacturing usually find themselves being a larger target. You literally cant stop the cloning and counterfeiting. If the countless products replicated before knives has taught us anything its that our way of dealing with counterfeiting isn't working. So what works? IMHO the old saying if you cant beat em join em partly applies.

In guitars counterfeiting is somewhat of an issue but not nearly as much as knives and its usually because those doing the work are not incredibly skilled so spotting a fake Gibson les paul is relatively easy to someone who even has a moderate interest. The companies that were good at counterfeiting were actually taken under the wing of the companies that were counterfeiting and they created import series of popular models. I think one of the biggest fears knifemakers have is that if china is allowed to produce their designs that it will reduce the demand for their products. The music industry has sorta proved this to not be the case. Most people who want a real Gibson les paul don't settle for a cheap alternative. They will always want and work to attain the real thing. But budget minded people don't want to compromise either and they want that guitar to be as close to the real thing as possible at a lower price. In many cases you can barely tell the difference. ESP is a company that comes to mind. Their japan made guitars differ from their Korean models by a decal, price and country of manufacture only. You literally cant feel nor even hear a difference. I firmly believe that if a USA based company made the exact same knife and changed only where it was made, maybe a slight difference in the quality of blade steel and you would see an ample market for both products. Hell you might even increase your customer base with a symbiotic relationship with those who you once viewed as an enemy. Customers of USA high end products are not interested in cheaper imports most times. And most customers who buy a fake are usually doing it because they don't want a knife that just kinda looks like the knife they want. But people who desire a premium product will always seek it out even if the two products appear and even perform identically. This is at least what I have seen from my view on the other side of the argument. Don't get me wrong I don't like when they copy logos, or try falsify serial numbers. I'm not that defensive over cloning the shape and look of something but that is another argument. I am simply saying that I just think we have and continue to attack this problem in all the wrong ways including pretending there was never a real threat to begin with.
 
Well said PURPLEDC ! Yes people who want the real thing will buy it, those that can't afford the real thing won't buy it, but will pay homage to the original by buying a close second. That grows that category and both original and clone benefit. Clones pretending to be real with copied logos confuse the market and should not be encouraged.
 
PURPLEDC said:
WALL O TEXT WARNING

Sometimes if the company is truly legit that would work. You would support a company collaborating with knifemakers instead of stealing. But the problem is not knowing which Chinese makers are truly on the up and up. There are some companies who will remain nameless who have double businesses. They make branded knives for the US market but they also make knives under different brand names dedicated to making clones and counterfeits. I'm not saying kizer is one of them. I'm just saying there is very little way to ensure you aren't unintentionally helping a company that is double dipping.

I think the real threat here is the veil on Chinese knife making has been lifted. And what I mean when I say that is for a number of years there was this urban legend that the Chinese were literally incapable of getting their hands on premium materials and lacked the experience and know how to utilize these materials. The cat is out of the bag on that little fable and we all know now what they can make and to what quality level. Some were only not buying Chinese because they didn't think they could get a quality knife. Even on this forum it was widely speculated that they could not import the materials successfully and still remain profitable.

The real question is how do you combat IP theft? I honestly don't think the answer lies within an all out boycott of china and refusing to buy its products and refusing to do business with them. I think more makers need to follow suit and collaborate with china. I am noticing a trend that the companies who vehemently oppose Chinese knife manufacturing usually find themselves being a larger target. You literally cant stop the cloning and counterfeiting. If the countless products replicated before knives has taught us anything its that our way of dealing with counterfeiting isn't working. So what works? IMHO the old saying if you cant beat em join em partly applies.

In guitars counterfeiting is somewhat of an issue but not nearly as much as knives and its usually because those doing the work are not incredibly skilled so spotting a fake Gibson les paul is relatively easy to someone who even has a moderate interest. The companies that were good at counterfeiting were actually taken under the wing of the companies that were counterfeiting and they created import series of popular models. I think one of the biggest fears knifemakers have is that if china is allowed to produce their designs that it will reduce the demand for their products. The music industry has sorta proved this to not be the case. Most people who want a real Gibson les paul don't settle for a cheap alternative. They will always want and work to attain the real thing. But budget minded people don't want to compromise either and they want that guitar to be as close to the real thing as possible at a lower price. In many cases you can barely tell the difference. ESP is a company that comes to mind. Their japan made guitars differ from their Korean models by a decal, price and country of manufacture only. You literally cant feel nor even hear a difference. I firmly believe that if a USA based company made the exact same knife and changed only where it was made, maybe a slight difference in the quality of blade steel and you would see an ample market for both products. Hell you might even increase your customer base with a symbiotic relationship with those who you once viewed as an enemy. Customers of USA high end products are not interested in cheaper imports most times. And most customers who buy a fake are usually doing it because they don't want a knife that just kinda looks like the knife they want. But people who desire a premium product will always seek it out even if the two products appear and even perform identically. This is at least what I have seen from my view on the other side of the argument. Don't get me wrong I don't like when they copy logos, or try falsify serial numbers. I'm not that defensive over cloning the shape and look of something but that is another argument. I am simply saying that I just think we have and continue to attack this problem in all the wrong ways including pretending there was never a real threat to begin with.
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Fair enough, but I still think one of the only ways to combat the theft of IP (especially from Asia) is to encourage those companies that are actually working with designers producing collaborations. Supporting a company that pays the designer making it more profitable with a better reputation will push others to follow that money. I agree there is still far too much money in fakes, and when the producing country's government won't do anything about it, there is very little else we can do to stem the flow. Our other option is education of new knife enthusiasts, but it's still not going to reach everyone.
 
Comeuppance said:
Let's not get too caught up in taking rhetoric too literally. I doubt anyone honestly wishes me or other members genuine bodily harm for having purchased clones in the past - that kind of thinking should be reserved for those who knowingly resell them as the genuine article :)

That said, realistically, even if they did wish real harm, it's a wish and thus of no value or substance. It's like getting upset with someone because they -wish- North Korea would just be wiped off the face of the earth. It's not reasonable or morally right, but it's also not going to happen just because someone wishes it so with their true heart of hearts.

Opinions and wishes - debatable but of no threat to anyone. People can wish I would fall down a flight of stairs for my DOC clone that I'm gifting to my co-worker (keeping one so we can be twinsies), and I will be blissfully unaware of their ill wishes.
Click to expand...

Ok then , I wish someone steal from you all your knives :D And next time you see a beautiful woman next to a big guy ..........tell him your secret wishes about that woman..... then debate ;)

Man buy what he can afford , from when that is a sin?
 
Don't be a poser. If you can't afford something, don't buy the fake. There are plenty of other options to get a quality item and good looking item if you don't have the cash for the cream of the crop. Be real.
 
I disagree with buying fakes.

At the same time I see a lot of "legal terms" being thrown around like IP theft. Patent stealing. Copyrights and Trademarks....


Before you use this term...you might want to look up what it actually means and what it's limits are.

Here's a short summary.

intellectual property
nounLAW
noun: intellectual property
intangible property that is the result of creativity, such as patents, copyrights, etc.
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This is just an umbrella term. Please note...unless a design has been put down somewhere on paper or registered....it is NOT officially (legally) someone's Intellectual property.

copyright
ˈkɒpɪrʌɪt/Verzenden
noun
noun: copyright; plural noun: copyrights
1.
the exclusive and assignable legal right, given to the originator for a fixed number of years, to print, publish, perform, film, or record literary, artistic, or musical material.
"he issued a writ for breach of copyright"
a particular literary, artistic, or musical work that is covered by copyright.
adjective
adjective: copyright
1.
protected by copyright.
"permission to reproduce photographs and other copyright material"
verb
verb: copyright; 3rd person present: copyrights; past tense: copyrighted; past participle: copyrighted; gerund or present participle: copyrighting
1.
secure copyright for (material).
"copyrighted music downloaded illegally from the Internet"
Click to expand...

looks like this could be applied to knife designs. However only if it's been registered. If nothing was ever officially registered as copyrighted...then this does not seem to apply.

patent
ˈpat(ə)nt,ˈpeɪt(ə)nt
noun
1.
a government authority or licence conferring a right or title for a set period, especially the sole right to exclude others from making, using, or selling an invention.
"he took out a patent for an improved steam hammer"
synonyms: copyright, licence, legal protection, right, performing right, permit, privilege, charter, franchise, registered trademark
"a company has since taken out a patent on the chemical"
adjective
1.
obtain a patent for (an invention).
"an invention is not your own until it is patented"
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Once again....a patent has to be applied for and registered. And even then it's only applicable for a limited time.



trademark
ˈtreɪdmɑːk/
noun
noun: trademark; plural noun: trademarks
1.
a symbol, word, or words legally registered or established by use as representing a company or product.
synonyms: logo, emblem, sign, stamp, symbol, device, badge, crest, insignia, seal, coat of arms, shield, motif, hallmark, mark, figure, monogram, logotype, colophon; More
a distinctive characteristic or object.
"the murder had all the trademarks of a Mafia hit"
synonyms: characteristic, trait, quality, attribute, feature, peculiarity, idiosyncrasy, hallmark, quirk, speciality, sign, telltale sign, penchant, proclivity
"long hair was the trademark of the hippy"
verb
verb: trademark; 3rd person present: trademarks; past tense: trademarked; past participle: trademarked; gerund or present participle: trademarking
1.
provide with a trademark.
"they are counterfeiting trademarked goods"
identify (a habit, quality, or way of life) as typical of someone.
"his trademarked grandiose style"
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This shows that yes, you can have an unregistered trademark...however in order for it to be legally applicable it needs to be registered somewhere.


To my knowledge very few knife designs and features have actually been registered as intellectual property. There are a few yes. But most are not.

Are there any in this Shiro clone? I don't know.

I however suspect that the guys at Shirogorov (and several other companies) do not hold patents, trademarks or copyrights on Bearings....blade shapes....handle materials....milling patterns and even overal design.

Some might....but I suspect a lot don't.

As such it's highly unlikely that the companies copying those designs or features are actually doing something illegal.
Morally wrong? Maybe...but that's a whole different discussion. Especially when you're having that discussion concerning a completely different culture that's being raised to "Learn by copying the master" from the time they're infants.





TL,DR: Chances are that the copying companies are not doing anything illegal. And that morally from THEIR point of view they're not doing anything wrong.
Doesn't mean we have to like it though
 
Not much more to be said on this subject, but I'll add one more thing quickly.
Sal from Spyderco will tell you that fake, counterfeit, clone Delicas and Enduras came very close to shutting Spydie's doors a few years ago.
The problem goes deeper when you can get a Delica, few years ago, for ~ $40 and people were paying $20 for the clones.....then, knowing they bought a clone that was garbage, bashing Spyderco.
Ugh
Joe
 
RX-79G said:
I am not in favor of counterfeiting, but I think it is possible that some people's hobby isn't exactly the same as other people's. There does seem to be the unspoken assumption that the appreciation of knives on this forum is somewhat uniform, and obvious.

It is illuminating to go to a forum like EDC where people love knives but aren't sentimental about copying, or Multitool, where they delight in tearing apart SAKs or Leathermans to make weird hybrids. Despite the size of BF, it is still a pretty narrow slice of the hobby.

All of this also seems strange after frequenting firearms boards where everyone owns 1911s that aren't Colts, AR-15s that aren't (also) Colts, and Brazilian copies of Italian copies of German Walthers.
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OMG! You just made me realize that all my AR's are sorry, no good, counterfeit clones. Oh the humanity!
 
RX-79G said:
I am not in favor of counterfeiting, but I think it is possible that some people's hobby isn't exactly the same as other people's. There does seem to be the unspoken assumption that the appreciation of knives on this forum is somewhat uniform, and obvious.

It is illuminating to go to a forum like EDC where people love knives but aren't sentimental about copying, or Multitool, where they delight in tearing apart SAKs or Leathermans to make weird hybrids. Despite the size of BF, it is still a pretty narrow slice of the hobby.

All of this also seems strange after frequenting firearms boards where everyone owns 1911s that aren't Colts, AR-15s that aren't (also) Colts, and Brazilian copies of Italian copies of German Walthers.
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In utter stark contrast to nearly everyone on BF , I DO make a distinction between a counterfeit and a obvious clone/copy . I despise counterfeits , especially when there is no reasonable way for the buyer to know . This cheats the buyer and the original brand maker because the price point is at the same level .

In stark contrast is a clone that is sold direct from China and costs 10% or even 1% of the original . The buyer isn't fooled unless extremely naive and the original maker is not harmed because the buyer would never have spent the money to buy the original . It's two entirely separate markets .

There are many folks these days that are severely economically limited . They might still enjoy having a cheap imitation of a fine expensive knife . Don't see the harm in that . The high end collector will never knowingly purchase a clone because there's no resale or bragging rights in a clone/copy .

I realize that there is a big middle ground and overlap . I don't like anyone getting cheated but I think some of the hate against clones comes from pure elitism and class snobbishness ! The lower class can love knifes too and pretend to be you . Is that so wrong , really ?
 
Bronze Age Man said:
When the Japanese first started making motorbikes they copied the British designs before coming up with their own. I make reproduction Shaker furniture that is identical except the glue; I see it as honouring their skill. I would not buy a 'copy' of a Rolex as it is nothing like a real Rolex. Perhaps it just comes down to the quality of the copy? A quality Chinese knife company that starts with copies of high quality products as a target and to create an identity for itself may then create it's own identity and products. This birthing process of a company is an attempt to shortcut the way to success. Success relies on a quality product, those that remain stuck in mediocrity eke out a living on price alone. They also need to create their own identity or their efforts are wasted.
The consumer that buys on image alone may discover over half their purchases are duds. The knowledgeable consumer seeking value for less money may be happy. The issue of 'ripping off' designs, patents, ideas, etc is endemic worldwide. Ultimately I see it as a source of growth. It helps keep prices in check as well as some companies delusions of grandeur. It is not going away, decrying it will not stop it; the educated consumer will keep it in check. Do whatever makes you happy!
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I guess all of those cover bands need to burn in hell. To think, someone is making some money off the words and tunes someone else created...
 
Surprising how many folks on a knife forum own neither a Buck, Schrade, Puma, Bear & Son, Case, Kershaw, Old Timer, Uncle Henry, Gerber, Ka-Bar, Sheffield, Grohmann, Cold Steel, Benchmade...
 
Well I've got a green thorn shiro hati in CF with an s35vn blade on the way right now. Paid around 105 shipped. I support many USA knife companies (ZT, spyderco, Benchmade etc). Never would I pay 800+ for a Russian made knife. The one I ordered has no shiro logos so there's no way it could ever be passed off as a legit one.

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
 
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